Massive Spinosaurus Claw and Skull

[Phos_01]

Hello everyone,

 

as im following up on my previous post while im on vacation someone tipped me to visit a local Fossil shop in a small town. So they have a massive Spinosaur Skull displayed and what interests me the most a huge claw with bone. 
 

sadly i had a language barrier and someone from my friends translated a bit for me. The shop owner was not very friendly and seemed a little suspicious with my questions ‘are they authentic’ and ‘where lies there origin’. He then told me they are purely authentic and that he was doing this for 35 years. He took it personal that I asked him this. Once I revealed my collection he was like oh this guy knows a bit about Fossils. 
 

What fascinated me the most about this story is the fact that he then told me these were found locally in a place in France named Pourrieres. A hidden private property place were only 3 people know about. I was like what ? I thought they only lived in Egypt / Marokko etc. Very interesting. Does anyone know about this?

 

anyway the claw is calling my name , it wants me to take it home lol. But it does not come for free, quite te opposite. So it would be very apreciate if you guys could let me in on your opinion about authenticity / quality. As im still a new collector that just started this amazing hobby.
 

Curious to your thoughts!

thanks

best regards,

Phos_ 

[Bobby Rico]

Spinosaurus I think is mostly North Africa.  If it is real and from France I think it would be in a museum.  I call our friend for help @Troodon .

Edited July 20, 2021 by Bobby Rico

[LordTrilobite]

I don't think any spinosaurids are known from France. But they are known from the UK, and the Iberian peninsula. So it would make sense that there would be spinosaurids in France as well.

I recognize that skull. Looks like a replica of that one which is a Japanese private collection I think.

 

The right side of the claw does not look good. There's a lot of matrix on the surface. This could be matrix + glue to hide repairs, or alternatively it could just be original matrix. The left side of the claw looks better. There's definitely real bone here. But I'm not quite sure how much is original claw. I think the back might be original. Although I wouldn't rule out carved random bone. Towards the front half there are a few areas that look like they might have filling or repairs.
If I was interested in buying a claw like this I would want to view it up close in person before committing. You made good photos from different angles. But sadly I don't think these photos are conclusive to say one way or the other.

Same with the phalanx bone. There are a few areas that look a little off. I think at the least there is some repair. At worst, it might be a composite.

[Troodon]

To add to what LordTrilobite said that region of France (Var Department) is late Cretaceous (Campanian/Maastrichtian) in age and the family of Spinosaurids that existed in Europe or North Africa were from older periods.   So his story that it was locally found does not make sense.  The skull is definitely a Spinosaurus replica so it also brings to question what he is selling since its from North Africa.

 

The digit looks good looks with some repairs and so does one side of the claw, the other needs to be examined closely.  I think its real but cannot conclusively say that without looking at it in person.

The claw and digit might be real but because of his story of where it was found I would be very suspicious.

 

 

[FranzBernhard]

I am wondering about the back story:

1 hour ago, Phos_01 said:

is the fact that he then told me these were found locally in a place in France named Pourrieres. A hidden private property place were only 3 people know about.

Why to build and tell such a story to a stranger? Just to increase the price?
Franz Bernhard

[Bobby Rico]

1 hour ago, FranzBernhard said:

I am wondering about the back story:

Why to build and tell such a story to a stranger? Just to increase the price?
Franz Bernhard

I image a lot of their business Is holiday makers that probably as rare as hen’s teeth now. desperate times and all that.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Bobby Rico

[Tidgy's Dad]

I have encountered many fossil dealers who are affronted when the authenticity of their wares is questioned. 

Some, I think are cheats and liars, others have been cheated themselves and aren't aware of the truth of the matter, some are just salesmen and others may even have been right and I was wrong. 

Maybe I'm too skeptical. 

But, as I said on your other post, I'm pretty sure the skull's a replica, and now, having heard the story of the location of this find I am even more deeply suspicious.  

Edited July 20, 2021 by Tidgy's Dad

[Phos_01]

4 hours ago, Bobby Rico said:

Spinosaurus I think is mostly North Africa.  If it is real and from France I think it would be in a museum.  I call our friend for help @Troodon .

 

4 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

I don't think any spinosaurids are known from France. But they are known from the UK, and the Iberian peninsula. So it would make sense that there would be spinosaurids in France as well.

I recognize that skull. Looks like a replica of that one which is a Japanese private collection I think.

 

The right side of the claw does not look good. There's a lot of matrix on the surface. This could be matrix + glue to hide repairs, or alternatively it could just be original matrix. The left side of the claw looks better. There's definitely real bone here. But I'm not quite sure how much is original claw. I think the back might be original. Although I wouldn't rule out carved random bone. Towards the front half there are a few areas that look like they might have filling or repairs.
If I was interested in buying a claw like this I would want to view it up close in person before committing. You made good photos from different angles. But sadly I don't think these photos are conclusive to say one way or the other.

Same with the phalanx bone. There are a few areas that look a little off. I think at the least there is some repair. At worst, it might be a composite.

 

3 hours ago, Troodon said:

To add to what LordTrilobite said that region of France (Var Department) is late Cretaceous (Campanian/Maastrichtian) in age and the family of Spinosaurids that existed in Europe or North Africa were from older periods.   So his story that it was locally found does not make sense.  The skull is definitely a Spinosaurus replica so it also brings to question what he is selling since its from North Africa.

 

The digit looks good looks with some repairs and so does one side of the claw, the other needs to be examined closely.  I think its real but cannot conclusively say that without looking at it in person.

The claw and digit might be real but because of his story of where it was found I would be very suspicious.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Bobby Rico said:

I image a lot of their business Is holiday makers that probably as rare as hen’s teeth now. desperate times and all that.

Hello thank you for all this comments! 
 

the story about the location is definitely very interesting because I convincingly said ‘oh those are from the Kem Kem region?’ And he almost proudly said ‘no they are found only 50km from here in a place named Pourrieres. Why would he lie about this? It does not help him out in a convincing way. Telling me its from Marroco would be easier for him. 
 

also the claw was really massive. Very impressive peace, I tried placing my hand infront of the window to show the size. 
 

the price was very high, so I don’t like to much restorations or composite. Then again perhaps / most likely its ultra rare to find one in mint condition. 
 

Perhaps ill pay another visit tomorrow LOL 

 

5 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

I have encountered many fossil dealers who are affronted when the authenticity of their wares is questioned. 

Some, I think are cheats and liars, others have been cheated themselves and aren't ware of the truth of the matter, some are just salesmen and others may even have been right and I was wrong. 

Maybe I'm too skeptical. 

But, as I said on your other post, I'm pretty sure the skulls a replica, and now, having heard the story of the location of this find I am even more deeply suspicious.  

This guy was definitely not a sales guy , I really had to make effort to see it and get some information. Very uncommercial. Also I cant image he has clients for this everyday due to the high price. 
 

allot of people I saw when visiting for 15 minutes bought some minerals, small fossils etc.  

[Tidgy's Dad]

It is common practice to have a particularly impressive specimen that draws people in, even though they will not buy the piece in question, they will be attracted to other more affordable items. A 'showpiece' specimen may be real or not, but one is not really expecting it to sell, it's a draw. You've already been back once and are planning to return again, so it's working. 

[Top Trilo]

3 hours ago, FranzBernhard said:

I am wondering about the back story:

Why to build and tell such a story to a stranger? Just to increase the price?
Franz Bernhard

Either the seller has no idea where its from and may have purchased it from somewhere else in France or he did it so the potential buyer would question themselves and the fact that very few know about this secret location would make you unsure of what condition and color the fossils would be, and to get the buyer to stop asking questions.

[Phos_01]

16 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

It is common practice to have a particularly impressive specimen that draws people in, even though they will not buy the piece in question, they will be attracted to other more affordable items. A 'showpiece' specimen may be real or not, but one is not really expecting it to sell, it's a draw. You've already been back once and are planning to return again, so it's working. 

Yeah that seems logic now that you mention it. It only has one advantage perhaps I can get a good deal on the price since they did not expect a crazy fossil guy would enter their shop lol

7 minutes ago, Top Trilo said:

Either the seller has no idea where its from and may have purchased it from somewhere else in France or he did it so the potential buyer would question themselves and the fact that very few know about this secret location would make you unsure of what condition and color the fossils would be, and to get the buyer to stop asking questions.

That could be. But like ive mentioned he has told me very convincingly like he really knew what he was talking about. Sadly my french is so bad I could not understand clearly. Ill try to get more information shortly 

[Coco]

If I understand correctly, the seller is French. Well, then you can send me her or her messages and I’ll let you know, if that helps you understand.

A dishonest seller may have an interest in lying about an origin : a collector unfamiliar and who starts a theme can buy a fossil simply because it comes from a new place, especially if this place is "secret" !

 

Coco

[Bobby Rico]

Is this good  provenance ? a secret location and until  this shop sold them Spinosaurus  have not been known to be found in this location or Country  not even single teeth but now full skull and claws have been found. This is a red flag to me sorry, that’s only my opinion.

[JohnJ]

It may be my imagination, but the grain of the bone suggests it is carved.  There also appears to be grinding marks along the dorsal curve, and there are weird shifts in surface texture.  The color change from the outer surface to the groove doesn't seem right.

 

[LordTrilobite]

3 hours ago, Bobby Rico said:

Is this good  provenance ? a secret location and until  this shop sold them Spinosaurus  have not been known to be found in this location or Country  not even single teeth but now full skull and claws have been found. This is a red flag to me sorry, that’s only my opinion.

The skull most definitely isn't from France. It's a replica of a known composite skull from the Kem Kem beds that currently in private hands.

[Bobby Rico]

10 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

The skull most definitely isn't from France. It's a replica of a known composite skull from the Kem Kem beds that currently in private hands.

I believed you I seen it online sometime ago   . The shop keeper claims it is from France I think . I was just making a point that the provenance is very weak and it was said to be bona fide. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Bobby Rico

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

6 hours ago, Phos_01 said:

This guy was definitely not a sales guy , I really had to make effort to see it and get some information. Very uncommercial. Also I cant image he has clients for this everyday due to the high price.

 

All of this points towards him not wanting to sell it, unless someone is stupid enough to meet his demands. Contrary to what you believe, I think this is very commercial and knows exactly what to tell you in order to get you to buy. You not knowing the language only works to his advantage, as your interpreter wouldn't express the same body language in translation as the seller himself would have done when telling the original version of his story...

 

9 hours ago, FranzBernhard said:

I am wondering about the back story:

Why to build and tell such a story to a stranger? Just to increase the price?
Franz Bernhard

 

5 hours ago, Top Trilo said:

Either the seller has no idea where its from and may have purchased it from somewhere else in France or he did it so the potential buyer would question themselves and the fact that very few know about this secret location would make you unsure of what condition and color the fossils would be, and to get the buyer to stop asking questions.

 

Well, in my opinion, telling such a tall tale to a stranger sifts the weeds from the caff. Either the customer buys the story and stops asking annoying questions about the authenticity of his wares and the seller knows they can tell them any tall story they want and charge whatever they want, or the potential customer now knows that the seller's wares should be considered with additional care and droop off leaving the seller to practice sales the way he likes.

 

11 hours ago, Phos_01 said:

What fascinated me the most about this story is the fact that he then told me these were found locally in a place in France named Pourrieres. A hidden private property place were only 3 people know about.

 

While I do concede the possibility of a private quarry or secret fossil location from what I've experienced over here in France, I doubt they'd have found spinosaur remains there, let alone a complete skull.

 

10 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

I don't think any spinosaurids are known from France. But they are known from the UK, and the Iberian peninsula. So it would make sense that there would be spinosaurids in France as well.

 

As Olof said, I haven't heard of spinosaurids from France, but I could be wrong. @caterpillar & @Pixpaleosky. In any case, spinosaurids are known from the UK and Iberian peninsula - as well as Brazil, Thailand and various African countries, of course - and thus the presumption they might have once roamed what is presently France certainly doesn't seem far-fetched.

 

10 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

I recognize that skull. Looks like a replica of that one which is a Japanese private collection I think.

 

Although I don't recognize this specific skull - not all that interested in dinosaurs - I do know that there's always multiple for sale at the Sainte Marie-aux-Mines fossil fair. Getting your hands on one wouldn't be all that difficult...

 

So, I share the overall verdict in the skull not being real, and agree with John that the claw looks suspicious...

[Pixpaleosky]

Indeed there is no such fossils there. And as troodon said the rocks are from upper cretaceous.

In Pourriere only a few bits of fossils were found (turtle, fish). During the highway enlargement a few years ago the local museum did find dino but nothing like that in terms of conservation, size, species, age...

Otherwise it would have been sold in a second for a fortune

 

 

[Pixpaleosky]

Some exemples of the discoveries :

titanosaur remains and turtle skull

[JohnJ]

A reminder that any price inquiries should be made via PM.  Thanks.

[Troodon]

Here is a replica Spino at the Tucson show.  Outside where a number of European dealers have rooms.  Same one???

 

 

I'm still in the camp that there is a good chance claw and digit are real but it needs someone knowledgeable to examine it, given the background.

[Top Trilo]

Don't think they're the same, it may be the angle but the one in this shop looks much longer than your photo Frank

[Bobby Rico]

I think is maybe the critter it is cast from. It is in Japan now

Edited July 20, 2021 by Bobby Rico

[Troodon]

11 minutes ago, Top Trilo said:

Don't think they're the same, it may be the angle but the one in this shop looks much longer than your photo Frank

This one was huge 

[Top Trilo]

Is it the angle or is the horn/ridge on top of its head is a different shape?