PhishermanPhil Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Hi there! I'm new to the forum. I recently picked up a mosasaur jaw, my first fossil. Question is it real or fake, I started doing the research after making the purchase.. Comparing it to other examples, it's somewhere in the middle. It doesn't look totally manufactured, but it also kind of looks to good to be true. Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 My vote is for composite with teeth added. 1 6 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Yes, a nasty one that has huge dollops of cement / plaster added using fingers by the look of it. 2 2 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhishermanPhil Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 Well this is disappointing haha. Learning lesson I guess. So are you guys thinking that the jaw bone itself is composite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 I would say so. 1 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praefectus Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Real jaw, real teeth, but the teeth are not original and have been glued in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Issues with the piece are previously noted. If it were mine, I would clean up some of the indelicate "patching/adhering." Simple tools, carbide needles and a pin vise/Xacto blades could easily refine the appearance of some of the less elegantly applied filler/adhesive. In my aesthetic estimate, the visual appeal of the piece would be improved by removing matrix from the upper (in your photo) half. That is, I would remove all the matrix seen behind the teeth. The lower matrix, and that backing the jaw, would remain unmolested. Alternately, you might opt to attempt to return the piece, if it was presented for sale as all original. Were it mine, I would keep it. I think it will display nicely with just a little care and attention. Good luck, have fun. Before clicking "submit" I went back and looked at the photos again. There are significant fractures in some teeth. If you did opt to perform the monkeying I suggested, caution and some consolidant would be prudent. 1 Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 4 hours ago, Praefectus said: Real jaw, real teeth, but the teeth are not original and have been glued in place. I agree, though it's my impression the teeth belong to the jaw (at least a significant part of them do and they are of the right species), but broke off when the matrix around them was removed (they're more or less freestanding, if I'm looking at this correctly). Subsequently, they were glued back into place. Gaps in the original jaw have been rather sloppily filled, but I don't think it's been composited. Though if one looks at the left-most jaw section, the matrix also seems tempered with, so, yeah, may be that part was added for embellishment (then again, the same seems to be going on across the east of the jaw too, and may this just be indicative of the way the teeth were worked free)... Anyway, just my impression, but it doesn't overall improve the current state of the piece, which, even if mostly original, looks distinctly doctored... @snolly50's suggestion might in that respect not be a bad one, if you dare (I can imagine it might be a bit scary, though, if you're new to fossils). All you'd need it's some dental picks, wooden tooth picks, some aceton and probably some glue (considering the way Moroccan preparators work, wood glue would suffice as a starter). In any case, welcome to TFF! As you'll have discovered we've got quite some knowledgeable members on the forum. And don't let this minor setback hold you back from continuing on that road to what's a beautiful, educational and versatile interest! 1 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 This is a horrible construction job. The 'jaw bone' has been glued onto a rock and the teeth have been added. Just look at all the different colors of these teeth! i dont mean to be so blunt but I am very glad that this is a learning experience for you. and belive me, we have all been taken by fakes before. Good luck RB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FranzBernhard Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 6 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: the teeth belong to the jaw (at least a significant part of them do and they are of the right species), but broke off when the matrix around them was removed That would be really nice to find out - whats just glued back and whats possibly added. You may end up with a jaw with some original teeth and some extra teeth. That would not really be a bad outcome from the nightmare it is at the moment. Franz Bernhard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhishermanPhil Posted July 21, 2021 Author Share Posted July 21, 2021 Okay the new messages have me feeling a little better :). I may attempt to clean it up a bit. Few dumb questions, the matrix @snolly50 mentioned, is that the sandy yellow material surrounding the piece and holding a lot of it together? Also - Is acetone used to remove the matrix material from the little crevices on the jaw and the white plaster? Is there any risk to damaging the jaw or teeth by using it? Thanks for all the advice and education guys, much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Its highly unlikely the teeth belong to the jaw. My experience in talking with dealers at the Tucson show is that bones and teeth are collected in mass and composited at a local town. Water works best with some glue used by these folks. My guess is that you will wind up with a bunch of loose bones and crowns Acetone will not hurt the teeth or bones. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snolly50 Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 1 hour ago, PhishermanPhil said: holding a lot of it together Yes, the whole piece is supported by the matrix (the granular material you reference). From the photos, the crowns of the teeth appear free-standing. The jaw sections are embedded/ backed and therefore stabilized by the matrix. I was suggesting removal of the matrix circled in red below. This would leave the teeth free-standing without material visible behind, yet retain the support for the jaw sections. As previously stated the teeth (crowns) already appear free of a matrix backing, making the prospect of removing the large matrix block behind them all that easier. I was also suggesting smoothing/minimizing the visible filler material seen between jaw sections and at the base of the teeth. Acetone will dissolve most types of glue. This may not be desirable. I am suggesting a mechanical approach at refinement of the piece, which would leave any glued or plastered? parts joined as they currently are - just prettied up. Disclaimer: This stance is driven by my own "taste" and aesthetic view. There undoubtedly exist a host of other opinions as to the best final outcome; including just leave it alone and enjoy. Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, also are remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. - Douglas Adams, Last Chance to See Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 1 hour ago, PhishermanPhil said: Okay the new messages have me feeling a little better :). I may attempt to clean it up a bit. Few dumb questions, the matrix @snolly50 mentioned, is that the sandy yellow material surrounding the piece and holding a lot of it together? Also - Is acetone used to remove the matrix material from the little crevices on the jaw and the white plaster? Is there any risk to damaging the jaw or teeth by using it? Matrix is the rock the fossil is embedded in, so indeed the yellow sandy stuff. You can scrape it away with dental picks or a sharp knife, as, where not glued together, it's very soft. Where it's smoother without inclusion (white specs that are leftovers of other fossils), the matrix had been artificially constructed, as can be seen at the top of the jaw around the teeth. You'd probably also remove the plaster with the same tools, but can use water to soften the matrix (be careful not to use too much on the bones, though, as they'll suck the water up, which temporarily weakens the bones. The acetone is used to dissolve glue, as it works on almost any glue and (in a way, at least to the fossil, since its toxic and highly flammable) is safer than water, as, much like alcohol, it evaporates very quickly. This means there's less risk of weakening your fossils due to over-application of water. However, as most of the glue used by Moroccan preparators is water-soluble white glue, it should be possible to remove the glue using water as well. I haven't tried this, though... As to the question of risk: yes, it's there. Since both bone and matrix are soft, there's a risk of accidentally scraping away bone, if not careful, and composited pieces may come apart and will then need to be refit. As far as fossil preparation goes, however, it doesn't get much easier than this, since preparing this material can be done using basic tools that are readily available and the matrix is very soft. 1 hour ago, Troodon said: Its highly unlikely the teeth belong to the jaw. My experience in talking with dealers at the Tucson show is that bones and teeth are collected in mass and composited at a local town. Water works best with some glue used by these folks. My guess is that you will wind up with a bunch of loose bones and crowns While its undeniable true that, in general, a lot is composited and teeth are often added (happens even in the US/Kansas, by the way, as I recently found out when trying to buy some mosasaur verts and teeth from a US-based vendor/ preparation lab), this certainly doesn't mean teeth are never found in association with jaws... To me it looks like most teeth match in colour and size (where needed taking account of position along the mandible), with only a minority standing out as differing from the rest. If they could find so many matching teeth, what went wrong finding fitting pieces for the last few teeth? 4 minutes ago, snolly50 said: I was also suggesting smoothing/minimizing the visible filler material seen between jaw sections and at the base of the teeth. Another option, if you rather like the aesthetics of a more complete looking piece, would be to use a smooth white wall-filler to fill in and sculpt missing pieces (textures can be scratched in when drying), then apply both white acrylic craft seal mixed with pulverise matrix to mimic the look of the original fossil. Just another suggestion 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phos_01 Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 Hmm, After seeing the photos and comments. I would leave it as it is personally ... Keep it as a decorative piece. When you will start to clean , skeletons will pop out of the closet like they say. You'll end up with what they said above, and a piece that is less attractive. Or just some tooth alone. Its advised before you buy something next time, you post the pictures here (without price and seller information) Its the safest option :-) Goodluck !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted August 13, 2021 Share Posted August 13, 2021 Not the worst jaw I've seen. But it's not fantastic either. Looks like a mostly complete jaw with a number of composited teeth. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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