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Monmouth County Cretaceous revisited - re-classification to Plioplatecarpine


frankh8147

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Hello everyone!

 

You may have seen this tooth in my last trip report. When I posted this, I originally had it labeled as just Mosasaur (honestly, mostly because I know very well the 'can of worms' you are opening to try to get more specific on an isolated reptile tooth).

 

Curiosity got the best of me and I ended up showing it to every contact (professional and local) that I have and at this point, I believe this tooth to be a Plioplatecarpine/Platycarpus (a deep-sea Mosasaur) which was the most common opinion.

 

The characteristics that led me to this conclusions were the severely re-curved nature, striations at the base, two well-defined carinae positioned towards the back of the tooth, and overall, how slender the tooth is (as slender as some Plesiosaur teeth but with two defined cutting edges).

 

Anyway, despite all the Mosasaur teeth I've found, I didn't know this type was here so I figured I'd share.

 

I'll stand by the identification - until proven wrong :)

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Edited by frankh8147
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Frank, can you rule out it being a pterygoid tooth?  

 

 

 

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The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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16 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

Frank, can you rule out it being a pterygoid tooth?  

 

 

 

To my knowledge - yes. The striated base and overall position of the carinae towards the back are what led me away from that. I also have some we believe to be pterygoid and none are even close to as thin.

I am factoring all aspects of it in together to come to that conclusion. I also know Plioplatecarpine has been found in New Jersey (although documentation is thin).

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19 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

Frank, can you rule out it being a pterygoid tooth? 

 

This is exactly what I was thinking.

 

I have two teeth that are quite similar to this.

I am not home right now so I can't get better pictures.

 

Here is the first:

 

1132359518_ScreenShot2021-07-26at3_54_08PM.png.bec7507e9480dd4b9a08b1c2a16ad9f0.png

 

 

Here is the second:

 

1291948619_ScreenShot2021-07-26at3_54_46PM.png.25111da78a175ba01ca23f0a958eeb5a.png

 

307247367_ScreenShot2021-07-26at3_54_51PM.thumb.png.aa2bf6f839870f07a71193ad22752030.png

 

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34 minutes ago, Al Dente said:

Did you rule out crocodile?

 

I wouldn't completely rule anything out on an isolated reptile tooth but three aspects led us away from that. Croc teeth carinae tend to be evenly placed while these are at the sides (and croc teeth with carinae are very rare there to begin with), it has a resorbed root like Mosasaurs do, and it has that striations at the base which ive never seen in any croc tooth found locally.

30 minutes ago, Trevor said:

 

This is exactly what I was thinking.

 

I have two teeth that are quite similar to this.

I am not home right now so I can't get better pictures.

 

Here is the first:

 

1132359518_ScreenShot2021-07-26at3_54_08PM.png.bec7507e9480dd4b9a08b1c2a16ad9f0.png

 

 

Here is the second:

 

1291948619_ScreenShot2021-07-26at3_54_46PM.png.25111da78a175ba01ca23f0a958eeb5a.png

 

307247367_ScreenShot2021-07-26at3_54_51PM.thumb.png.aa2bf6f839870f07a71193ad22752030.png

 

 

Hey Trevor, I don't see striations on yours  but how are the carinae placed? On mine, it looks 'awkward'. Here's another angle of mine.

20210614_163420~2.jpg

Edited by frankh8147
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What formation are these from? I have Maastrictian (Peedee Formation) teeth that look the same or similar.

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I have found mosasaur teeth that look like that, but I am not sure if you can ID them as Plioplatecarpine. They are more likely to be pterygoid teeth. Those actually seem to be missing patches of enamel at the base of your tooth causing the illusion of striations.

“You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal

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26 minutes ago, The Jersey Devil said:

I have found mosasaur teeth that look like that, but I am not sure if you can ID them as Plioplatecarpine. They are more likely to be pterygoid teeth. Those actually seem to be missing patches of enamel at the base of your tooth causing the illusion of striations.

 

The most prominent striations on the base are the parts that still have the enamel on them (they are mostly worn off on the parts missing enamel). 

 

One of the reasons I bought into this identification were because they don't follow the cracks running up the tooth. You can kind of see them in the worn sections but not really well.

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55 minutes ago, Al Dente said:

What formation are these from? I have Maastrictian (Peedee Formation) teeth that look the same or similar.

Mine is Maastrictian (not found in formation), but actually, most of the comparitive examples I was shown were from around your part of the country (Frankstown formation).

 

Another feature I was shown was the circular (crocodile-like) root. As you brought up earlier, it does also look crocodilian.

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Which mosasaur specialists/professionals have you shown it to?  

 

Everhart?

Polcyn?

Jagt?

Lively?

 

 

5 hours ago, frankh8147 said:

I ended up showing it to every contact (professional and local) that I have and at this point, I believe this tooth to be a Plioplatecarpine/Platycarpus (a deep-sea Mosasaur) which was the most common opinion.

 

The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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2 hours ago, JohnJ said:

Which mosasaur specialists/professionals have you shown it to?  

 

Everhart?

Polcyn?

Jagt?

Lively?

 

 

 

In the end, this was my opinion due to the features of the tooth that I mentioned and the observations/opinions of others I've worked with a lot in the past.

Due to the debate, I think showing it to some Mosasaur experts like some you mentioned is the logical next step. If you happen to have thoughts on anyone particular, feel free to send me a message.

As I stated, I am always up for correction!

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It would be interesting to see what Everhart and Polcyn think.  

 

Current research (unpublished) by Joshua Lively identifies an increasing amount heterodonty in Late Cretaceous mosasaurs.  That makes for a lot of overlap between genera from juveniles to adults.

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9 hours ago, frankh8147 said:

Mine is Maastrictian (not found in formation), but actually, most of the comparitive examples I was shown were from around your part of the country (Frankstown formation).

 

Another feature I was shown was the circular (crocodile-like) root. As you brought up earlier, it does also look crocodilian.


Here’s a few of my teeth from the Peedee Formation, Island Creek Member of North Carolina. I have always assumed they were crocodile teeth, but am open to other interpretations. I have found croc osteoderms at the same site. Some of these teeth have slight striations and some are smooth. All have carinae and indented bases with round cross sections. These teeth are about as common as regular mosasaur teeth at this site.

 

 

0897AB01-E3ED-494E-AA49-AA0F83130FF2.jpeg

8CD9CB4E-4C05-40A5-A377-9307466F5F00.jpeg

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7 hours ago, JohnJ said:

It would be interesting to see what Everhart and Polcyn think.  

 

Current research (unpublished) by Joshua Lively identifies an increasing amount heterodonty in Late Cretaceous mosasaurs.  That makes for a lot of overlap between genera from juveniles to adults.

Sounds good, let's put that identification on hold and I'll reach out to them.

2 hours ago, Al Dente said:


Here’s a few of my teeth from the Peedee Formation, Island Creek Member of North Carolina. I have always assumed they were crocodile teeth, but am open to other interpretations. I have found croc osteoderms at the same site. Some of these teeth have slight striations and some are smooth. All have carinae and indented bases with round cross sections. These teeth are about as common as regular mosasaur teeth at this site.

 

 

0897AB01-E3ED-494E-AA49-AA0F83130FF2.jpeg

8CD9CB4E-4C05-40A5-A377-9307466F5F00.jpeg

 

I'll let you know what I find out! Out of all the people I reached out to for identification, Dr. Earl Manning was the most confident in the Plioplatecarpine ID but that was from seeing specimens from the Frenchtown. I'm not familiar with the Stratigraphy of the Peedee in relation to that but those do look very similar!

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6 hours ago, caterpillar said:

I think it's similar of the teeth I find in upper santonian of southwest France

 

http://www.paleotheque.fr/global/fiche.php?id=162&categorie=vertebres

 

Pterygoidal tooth

 

http://www.paleotheque.fr/global/fiche.php?id=148&categorie=vertebres

 

It does look very similar to your Platycarpus teeth! These aren't documented too well here in New Jersey so I did reach out to the folks recommend by John and we'll see what they have to say. 

 

Nice teeth by the way!

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17 hours ago, caterpillar said:

I think it's similar of the teeth I find in upper santonian of southwest France

 

http://www.paleotheque.fr/global/fiche.php?id=162&categorie=vertebres

 

I agree, this tooth does look like what I'd expect of Plioplatecarpus. That is, very mildly (i.e., barely noticeably) prismatic, with carinae slightly offset from a strict mesiodistal orientation - crocodile teeth are not prismatic and have carinae that align with the mesiodistal line of the jaw (i.e., not twisted, as in mosasaurs).

 

On 7/26/2021 at 11:32 PM, JohnJ said:

Frank, can you rule out it being a pterygoid tooth?

 

To my knowledge pterygoidal teeth would be more laterally compressed, with more properly anteroposteriorly aligned carinae (ones that devide the two halves of the tooth more equally, no twist), and can exhibit extreme backward curvature, as in the example caterpillar showed. Below are another two pterygoidal teeth for cross-species comparison, these from Ouled Abdoun in Morocco and belonging to Mosasaurus beaugei and an undetermined prognathodontid respectively:

 

dent-de-mosasaure-mosasaurus-baugei-arambourg-1954-maestrichtien-oued-zem-maroc.thumb.jpg.4a921a38b18d12741895ca7eb9284747.jpg

 

1863422199_Prognathodontidpterygoidaltooth.thumb.jpg.67a73c8de3bacb823614f448c148ba1e.jpg

 

16 hours ago, Al Dente said:

Here’s a few of my teeth from the Peedee Formation, Island Creek Member of North Carolina. I have always assumed they were crocodile teeth, but am open to other interpretations. I have found croc osteoderms at the same site. Some of these teeth have slight striations and some are smooth. All have carinae and indented bases with round cross sections. These teeth are about as common as regular mosasaur teeth at this site.

 

 

0897AB01-E3ED-494E-AA49-AA0F83130FF2.jpeg

 

From the looks of it, and your description, I think it likely all of these indeed crocodile teeth. Only the very right-most tooth and the third from right have potential of being plioplatecarpine - but better photographs would be needed to confirm this...

Edited by pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett

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1 hour ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

To my knowledge pterygoidal teeth would be more laterally compressed, with more properly anteroposteriorly aligned carinae (ones that devide the two halves of the tooth more equally, no twist), and can exhibit extreme backward curvature, as in the example caterpillar showed.

 

This find was donated to the University of Texas Vertebrate Paleontology Lab.  The base of the pterygoid teeth are more circular than compressed.  I'll have to check my files for the possibility of higher resolution images.

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Frank- I’m taking a closer look at your photos and am curious about a couple things. In this first photo are these indentations or just an artifact of the lighting? I’ve shaded the indentations in green. In the second photo one carina is clear, I put a blue line on it. What is the location of the other carina, closer to 6:00 or 9:00? Thanks.

 

 

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7C069F06-0A40-47F2-972D-81B8F3DB529E.jpeg

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4 hours ago, Al Dente said:

Frank- I’m taking a closer look at your photos and am curious about a couple things. In this first photo are these indentations or just an artifact of the lighting? I’ve shaded the indentations in green. In the second photo one carina is clear, I put a blue line on it. What is the location of the other carina, closer to 6:00 or 9:00? Thanks.

 

 

86896603-7849-4D52-B7E6-7062CD7EB90B.jpeg

7C069F06-0A40-47F2-972D-81B8F3DB529E.jpeg

 

It's very faint - I'm not sure if I would call that an indent or a tiny bit of faceting but would lean towards indent.

 

The second carinae as at 9:00.

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3 hours ago, frankh8147 said:

The second carinae as at 9:00.

Thanks. I would agree that the placement of the carinae is not typical for crocodile. 

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3 hours ago, Al Dente said:

Thanks. I would agree that the placement of the carinae is not typical for crocodile. 

I was thinking croc for a while too until that very fact was brought to my attention!

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On 7/28/2021 at 5:41 AM, JohnJ said:

This find was donated to the University of Texas Vertebrate Paleontology Lab.  The base of the pterygoid teeth are more circular than compressed.  I'll have to check my files for the possibility of higher resolution images.

 

That's some unusual dentition! Although I'm not overly familiar with plioplatecarpine mosasaurs (mostly limited to the Moroccan Gavialimimus and some loose teeth of the type caterpillar showed), I haven't ever seen teeth like on that specimen. Very peculiar, in my opinion. Then, again, I hadn't ever heard of the genus Latoplatecarpus before...

 

As such, I had a look through my reference material to see what I could find on pterygoidal teeth - no easy task based on museum mounts, where the relevant part is often hidden from view. However, it appears to me that lateral compression may or may not be present based on the species. I therefore stand corrected, as it does seem pterygoidal teeth can be conical. Notwithstanding, it still appears to me that the orientation of pterygoidal teeth - and especially their carinae - is consistently in line with the anteroposterior axis of the pterygoidal jaw. Below are a couple of examples from different species of mosasaur for comparison:

 

1424560177_Tethysaurusnopscaipterygoid1.thumb.jpg.1f301dae5d00822d34dc9e1df02593d5.jpg1826850912_Tethysaurusnopscaipterygoid2.thumb.jpg.9e94e721253ee103c9025526cb390d9a.jpg

 

Pterygoid of Tethysaurus nopscai

 

 

379731724_Clidastesjawsandpterygoid.thumb.jpg.dee0711000987ae5a151e0b8cfab6bfe.jpg

Clidastes sp. cranium from ventral side, showing pterygoid; mandibles alongside

 

317299427_Halisaurusarambourgipterygoid.thumb.jpg.d6459da780287915de85088a5fd6b06e.jpg

Cranium of Halisaurus arambourgi seen from several side, showing pterygoid

 

2022342484_Mosasaurushoffmannipterygoid1.thumb.jpg.6faa60da780045baa303cef492447ec2.jpg1780561211_Mosasaurushoffmannipterygoid2.thumb.jpg.4aa2bee8bcbf06dac40f45867af587b0.jpg

 

Ventral view of cranium of Mosasaurus hoffmanni at the Museum voor Natuurwetenschappen, Brussels, with close-up of pterygoid

 

 

1366299628_Prognathodonsp.pterygoid1.thumb.jpg.d10a066f4e1876907d89bd373d16fdcb.jpg1744520129_Prognathodonsp.pterygoid2.thumb.jpg.72010cc1438b9e6c0ab9aee4a86a7f9c.jpg

 

Ventral views of the crania of Prognathodon sp., with focus on pterygoids

 

 

 

In the process of looking for these images, I incidentally discovered that the teeth of Latoplatecarpus might actually not be as unique in how slender and pointy they are as I thought, since it seems like at least some teeth of Mosasaurus lemonnieri share this morphological feature (see photograph taken at the Museum voor Natuurwetenschappen, Brussels, below). All the same, however, teeth from the latter species are more triangular in shape and more laterally compressed.

 

1470444078_Mosasauruslemonnierijaws1.thumb.jpg.644ef68dd87e8a283eac85e31e116679.jpg492016150_Mosasauruslemonnierijaws2.thumb.jpg.8e6e2c619f6e17be3ea6582ee5009062.jpg

 

Edited by pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
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@pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon I'm still waiting on some opinions from some of The Mosasaur experts mentioned but the existence of the similar Latoplatecarpus surprised me too (to the point I'm considering if a more generic Platecarpus might be better).

 

I actually thought going with Plioplatecarpine was decently generic. Dr. Earl Manning who has studied the fauna of the East Coast Cretaceous extensively, believed it to be Plioplatecarpus depressus, which does make sense as the species was discovered right here in New Jersey (although is rarely mentioned in New jersey fauna elements, except for a few collections).

 

I'll see if anything definitive comes from from the folks I've mentioned since then but that might be asking a lot. Asking experts to give a definitive ID on an isolated reptile tooth is asking a lot, especially considering the fact they might not be as familiar with the New Jersey Cretaceous fauna. Even most of the New Jersey and East Coast experts I spoke to didn't want to give a definitive ID (hence, me taking responsibility for the identification). Most opinions I received wanted to give a tentative ID

 

Thank you for taking the time to show the examples you did! It's rare that I attempt to go into detail on an isolated reptile tooth but I felt this was an interesting specimen that deserved some attention and debate.

Edited by frankh8147
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