Large jaw fragment/teeth

[austinswamp]

Hello, my friend found this while digging on his property in Central Texas. I thought the teeth looked to large for coyote. Thanks for looking 

[Shellseeker]

Agree, Nice Find... please get a measurement on the chewing surface lengths of those carnassials.

[austinswamp]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

Agree, Nice Find... please get a measurement on the chewing surface lengths of those carnassials.

 

3 hours ago, austinswamp said:

Hello, my friend found this while digging on his property in Central Texas. I thought the teeth looked to large for coyote. Thanks for looking 

 

[Shellseeker]

Here is a Dire Wolf canine, over 3 inches.  You might have a smaller wolf, but it also could be a larger coyote.  Here is a dire wolf Carnassial at 32 mm.

 

I believe that @Harry Pristis has comparative measurements for canid carnassials.

 

Here is a slightly smaller wolf , canis lupus mandible

I know we all love canines. Focus on the Carnassial for identification purposes.  Jack

[Harry Pristis]

44 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Here is a Dire Wolf canine, over 3 inches.  You might have a smaller wolf, but it also could be a larger coyote.  Here is a dire wolf Carnassial at 32 mm.

 

I believe that @Harry Pristis has comparative measurements for canid carnassials.

 

Here is a slightly smaller wolf , canis lupus mandible

 I know we all love canines. Focus on the Carnassial for identification purposes.  Jack

 

That's an upper (P4) carnassial, Jack.  I have measurements for uppers, but not lowers.  I'll post them here in anticipation that a P4 will be recovered.

 

I agree that the canid in question is too large for a coyote.  Could be a wolf --a young individual with no wear on its teeth.  Where was it dug?  If it was in someone's backyard, I might consider a large domestic dog or even a captive-raised wolf that got unmanageable.

 

In canids such as Canis latrans, the upper carnassials (the large pointy cheek tooth) are the fourth premolars (P4). The lower carnassial teeth are the first molar (m1).

 

It's easy usually to distinguish between canid upper and lower carnassials. The upper carnassial (P4) in canids has three roots (or "fangs" as they are called in some books). The lower carnassial - the molar - has only two roots.

 

These coyote upper carnassials have a crown length of about 0.8" or ~20.3mm.

Other canid P4 crown lengths are:

 

For 50 dogs, C. familiaris, the avg. length was . . . . . . . . . . . . 19.28mm

For 111 female coyotes, C. latrans, the avg. lngth. was . . . . . . 19.60mm

For 166 male coyotes, the average length was . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20.38mm

For 12 eastern female gray wolves, C. lupus, the avg. was . . . . 22.67mm

For 19 eastern male gray wolves, the avg. P4 length was . . . . . . . . . . 24.55mm

For a good number of dire wolves, C. dirus, the crown length. . . . 30-35mm 

[Shellseeker]

6 hours ago, austinswamp said:

Hello, my friend found this while digging on his property in Central Texas. I thought the teeth looked to large for coyote. Thanks for looking 

You are on your way to identification..  Harry is the expert.. You now know that the most important teeth for identification purposes are the upper and lower Carnassials... Jack

[austinswamp]

1 hour ago, Harry Pristis said:

 

That's an upper (P4) carnassial, Jack.  I have measurements for uppers, but not lowers.  I'll post them here in anticipation that a P4 will be recovered.

 

I agree that the canid in question is too large for a coyote.  Could be a wolf --a young individual with no wear on its teeth.  Where was it dug?  If it was in someone's backyard, I might consider a large domestic dog or even a captive-raised wolf that got unmanageable.

 

In canids such as Canis latrans, the upper carnassials (the large pointy cheek tooth) are the fourth premolars (P4). The lower carnassial teeth are the first molar (m1).

 

It's easy usually to distinguish between canid upper and lower carnassials. The upper carnassial (P4) in canids has three roots (or "fangs" as they are called in some books). The lower carnassial - the molar - has only two roots.

 

These coyote upper carnassials have a crown length of about 0.8" or ~20.3mm.

Other canid P4 crown lengths are:

 

For 50 dogs, C. familiaris, the avg. length was . . . . . . . . . . . . 19.28mm

For 111 female coyotes, C. latrans, the avg. lngth. was . . . . . . 19.60mm

For 166 male coyotes, the average length was . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20.38mm

For 12 eastern female gray wolves, C. lupus, the avg. was . . . . 22.67mm

For 19 eastern male gray wolves, the avg. P4 length was . . . . . . . . . . 24.55mm

For a good number of dire wolves, C. dirus, the crown length. . . . 30-35mm 

This group never disappoints, thank you so much…what a great group this fossil forum is.

1 hour ago, Harry Pristis said:

 

That's an upper (P4) carnassial, Jack.  I have measurements for uppers, but not lowers.  I'll post them here in anticipation that a P4 will be recovered.

 

I agree that the canid in question is too large for a coyote.  Could be a wolf --a young individual with no wear on its teeth.  Where was it dug?  If it was in someone's backyard, I might consider a large domestic dog or even a captive-raised wolf that got unmanageable.

 

In canids such as Canis latrans, the upper carnassials (the large pointy cheek tooth) are the fourth premolars (P4). The lower carnassial teeth are the first molar (m1).

 

It's easy usually to distinguish between canid upper and lower carnassials. The upper carnassial (P4) in canids has three roots (or "fangs" as they are called in some books). The lower carnassial - the molar - has only two roots.

 

These coyote upper carnassials have a crown length of about 0.8" or ~20.3mm.

Other canid P4 crown lengths are:

 

For 50 dogs, C. familiaris, the avg. length was . . . . . . . . . . . . 19.28mm

For 111 female coyotes, C. latrans, the avg. lngth. was . . . . . . 19.60mm

For 166 male coyotes, the average length was . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20.38mm

For 12 eastern female gray wolves, C. lupus, the avg. was . . . . 22.67mm

For 19 eastern male gray wolves, the avg. P4 length was . . . . . . . . . . 24.55mm

For a good number of dire wolves, C. dirus, the crown length. . . . 30-35mm 

Dug in a very non-domesticated area of central TX. A hollow, between a spring and major creek 

[Harry Pristis]

I have prepared a schedule of average sizes of the m1 lower carnassial of some canids:

 

 

QUATERNARY CANIDS

LENGTH OF m1 (lower carnassial)

 

Canis lupus (avg. of 62 male individuals) …………………....…28.53 mm

Canis lupus (avg. of 47 female individuals) …………….…….…27.07 mm

Canis latrans (avg. of 22 Western individuals)……….………...23.13 mm

Canis rufus (avg. of 3 Eastern individuals) …….………….…...26.60 mm

Canis edwardii (avg. of 4 Western individuals) ….……………..24.65 mm

Aenocyon (canis) dirus (avg. of 15 Western individuals) ….…..35.33 mm

 

adapted from:

NORTH AMERICAN QUATERNARY CANIS

Ronald M. Nowack

Monograph Number 6, 1979

Univ. of Kansas Museum of Natural History