Unknown carnivore tooth....cat?...wolf ..? Pleistocene to Pliocene from Asia

[Adie_uk]

Hi just recieved this tooth from Indonesia, really can't work out what its from does anyone know? wolf? cat? other? Thanks so much

 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Adie_uk
photos

[Brett Breakin' Rocks]

Hmmm .. the roots don't look like they belong to this tooth. Have you considered a cetacean tooth ?  I'm not familiar with carnivores, but this resembles a cetacean tooth. (with some funny root extensions added for effect)   

 

Again, I'm not sure there is much known about cetaceans from Indonesia since most folks drool over the megalodon teeth that you seemingly trip over after every step.  

 

The crown is similar to this example I've attached, but not exact. I just added it to give you an example of the shape/variation of these teeth. But essentially the morphology of the tooth says cetacean to me. @Boesse

 

" Waipatia hectori, Waipatiidae, Oligocene, New Zealand; very similar teeth are found in the Charleston area. From Tanaka and Fordyce (2015) "

 

FYI .... the additions as I see them.

 

 

Cheers,

Brett

Edited August 4, 2021 by Brett Breakin' Rocks

[Adie_uk]

Thanks for your detailed reply, not sure about cetacean tooth as it was with other mammal teeth so assuming they all can from land sites with animals such as rhino, hippo, deer, bison, boar sometimes crocodile. i had not noticed the root its very odd as the colour does not match well but the size is perfect and there is no sign or reason for it to have been sanded and then polished to be made to look like a good fit as it was not sold with any id and just part of a mixed batch. I wonder if the root was longer but broke during excuvation and looks like it was glued back on maybe with the curve coing the wrong way and should look more like this root?  curving inwards....

when i say not sure about Cetacean tooth i mean i have not have the time to research yet will start looking into it

 

[Harry Pristis]

 

I agree with Brett:  This appears to be a composite tooth.  I don't recognize the tooth as a land carnivore premolar, so marine mammal would be my guess too.

[Boesse]

That's no marine mammal tooth I ever saw. Vaguely similar to some pinniped teeth, and some Oligocene odontocete teeth, but there's a few wrong things about it for either. The roots are whacky of course. I suspect this is an anterior premolar of a terrestrial carnivore or even some bizarre ungulate.

[Adie_uk]

Thanks for all the replies so far, I am googling some of the  ideas, its really interesting that it maybe something that was totally un expected.... I have taken some closer shots in case they help. One feature that does not stand out on some of the photos is the side of the tooth opposite the cusp is more of a flat face, so not thin and desidned for cutting , i hope the additional photos may help with what im trying to explain and aid the identification. Thank you.

[Mahnmut]

Hi Adie,

I recently learned to my astonishment how pointed a Hippos premolars are, could imagine that this one belongs to a small species?

Best Regards,

J

[Harry Pristis]

What a bizarre specimen!  I think it may be pathological because of the rugose edges and surfaces.  That is not a typical finish on mammalian enamel.  But, what's it from??

 

This is a thumbnail size tooth, though, if it were not pathological, it might be somewhat larger.  It has a mammalian premolar shape, let's say a p3 or p4 for the sake of argument.  In that case, the animal is likely to have been a hypercarnivore based on the shearing form of the tooth. 

 

If you accept those premises, we can eliminate many taxa like perissodactyls, most artiodactyls (but not whales), primates, xenarthrans, insectivores, and proboscidians.  Not eliminated are carnivores and whales (as illustrated earlier in the thread).  I don't recognize a carnivore (certainly not dispositive).  Boesse doesn't recognize a whale (more reliable).

 

I don't have an answer; but, I'm hoping to spur further thinking on the mystery. 

[Al Dente]

3 hours ago, Mahnmut said:

Hi Adie,

I recently learned to my astonishment how pointed a Hippos premolars are, could imagine that this one belongs to a small species?

Best Regards,

J

Looks like Hippo is a good possibility.

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Al Dente

[siteseer]

If it's Pliocene-Pleistocene, we can eliminate a lot of primitive groups so it might be a something from a recently-extinct group.  I was also thinking hippo, an earlier genus, or some kind of pig as well.   I've seen some side serrations on a molar of a Pleistocene hippo.  I'd have to see what I can find in my books.

 

Jess

[Shellseeker]

Bothriogenys was a genus of anthracotheres that lived in Eastern Africa during the late Eocene to early Oligocene. Most fossils have been found in Fayum, Egypt, but one species, B. orientalis, is known from late Eocene deposits in Thailand.

 

That is the dp2 with a split root that closely matches... dp1 likely has a similar root.

[siteseer]

On 8/4/2021 at 11:47 AM, Adie_uk said:

Thanks for your detailed reply, not sure about cetacean tooth as it was with other mammal teeth so assuming they all can from land sites with animals such as rhino, hippo, deer, bison, boar sometimes crocodile. i had not noticed the root its very odd as the colour does not match well but the size is perfect and there is no sign or reason for it to have been sanded and then polished to be made to look like a good fit as it was not sold with any id and just part of a mixed batch. I wonder if the root was longer but broke during excuvation and looks like it was glued back on maybe with the curve coing the wrong way and should look more like this root?  curving inwards....

 

when i say not sure about Cetacean tooth i mean i have not have the time to research yet will start looking into it

 

 

After re-reading the thread, I see a key sentence here and this the one noting the animals found there.  That is the same mix found at Solo River sites on Java though Bison is not known from there - probably water buffalo.  It's Pleistocene with Homo erectus being a rare find as well.  I've also seen hyena and some strange carnivore molar- very rare.  There was a guy who brought a quantity of that stuff to Tucson maybe 20 years years ago or more.  I saw a large croc tooth from there too.  Anyway, if it is the same stuff, I would say it is hippo, but because of the small size, I'm starting to lean toward some pig.

 

I'll try to get Fossillarry to take a look.  I used to try to stump him with oddball mammal teeth but he batted 1000.

 

Jess

 

[Adie_uk]

Hi Jess thanks for your reply, yes there is some fantastic fossils coming up from there, i can see why you would say hippo, the textute of the tooth is very simulay as i have some hippo teeth and even jaw sections from here. Hyena is an interesting one i will have to look up. I have jus got a big croc tooth will add a couple of photos.... not sure on pig either but i will look into it further, i have a great partial boar skull , just wish i could work out this tooth

[Harry Pristis]

19 minutes ago, Adie_uk said:

Hi Jess thanks for your reply, yes there is some fantastic fossils coming up from there, i can see why you would say hippo, the textute of the tooth is very simulay as i have some hippo teeth and even jaw sections from here. Hyena is an interesting one i will have to look up. I have jus got a big croc tooth will add a couple of photos.... not sure on pig either but i will look into it further, i have a great partial boar skull , just wish i could work out this tooth

 

  

 

 

I think this is the same animal.  It has the same "lumpy" surface of the enamel.  Is this a hippo premolar?  I wonder if the mystery tooth is a usually-absent P1 or p1.

[Adie_uk]

All the hippo i have seen are rounded on top this is pointed like carnivore...???

 

 

[Harry Pristis]

But, you have a p3 or a p4 there; notice the alveolus anterior to the first actual tooth.  That would be the p2 or p3.  The p1 is not present, as is common in mammals.  But p1 does appear in some individuals, almost an atavism.  That's what I am thinking about.  Horses provide a good example where these vestigial teeth (p1 or P1) are called "wolf" teeth.

 

 

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Adie_uk said:

All the hippo i have seen are rounded on top this is pointed like carnivore...???

On Thursday, I posted a suggestion that this might be Bothriogenys p2 from Thailand or Vietnam.  Have you discounted that?

Quote

Wikipedia: 

Bothriogenys was a genus of anthracotheres that lived in Eastern Africa during the late Eocene to early Oligocene. Most fossils have been found in Fayum, Egypt, but one species, B. orientalis, is known from late Eocene deposits in Thailand.

In life, they would have resembled hippopotamuses with small, elongated heads.

xx

[Harry Pristis]

Sorry, Jack, I just don't know anything about anthracotheres.  Beyond that, there are indications that the tooth is from the Solo River deposits which are much more recent (Blancan or later).

[Shellseeker]

5 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

Sorry, Jack, I just don't know anything about anthracotheres.  Beyond that, there are indications that the tooth is from the Solo River deposits which are much more recent (Blancan or later).

Harry,

Understood... I really had no news about anthracotheres either.... I just started searching the internet for the the clues that you and others provided (likely a p1 or p2)  small Hippo a possibility..

and I discovered an Eocene level mammal that is about pig sized , would resemble a Hippo if we saw it and had a triangular p2...  and existed in Vietnam and Thailand...

It is very likely out of left field, and so I wonder if I should see if it had been considered...

 

I am hoping that someone has a tooth from the animal and can be compared

[Harry Pristis]

On 8/8/2021 at 5:10 PM, Harry Pristis said:

But, you have a p3 or a p4 there; notice the alveolus anterior to the first actual tooth.  That would be the p2 or p3.  The p1 is not present, as is common in mammals.  But p1 does appear in some individuals, almost an atavism.  That's what I am thinking about.  Horses provide a good example where these vestigial teeth (p1 or P1) are called "wolf" teeth.

 

Nothing?  No one with other ideas?  They are called "wolf" teeth because they are smaller than the other cheek teeth, and they look like carnivore teeth . . . like the mystery tooth.  Here is a Parahippus jaw with p1 "wolf" tooth.  Below is a tiny p1 homolog from a bison. 

 

My best guess then is the mystery tooth is a p1 "wolf" tooth from a hippo.