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Like I said in my last post in this section of the forum about a turtle nuchal element, I've spent some time hunting the Colorado River here in southeastern Texas since my usual go-to spots on the Brazos have been completely submerged for months from all the rain we've been getting this summer. Fortunately, it's paid off with some unusual finds that, if my hunches are correct, aren't anything like what I normally find. 

These two teeth in particular were found within inches of each other close to the water's edge, however, I don't think they're associated based on the difference in preservation and enamel coloration.

My initial guess was bison for the tooth still lodged in a fragment of jawbone, and deer for the other. It wasn't until I started searching for comparison images in Hulbert's excellent Fossil Vertebrates of Florida and on the forum that I realized I was probably wrong. 

The isolated tooth is (as far as I can tell) much too large to be deer, and the tooth in the jawbone, while superficially resembling bison teeth in the raised enamel on its occlusal surface, is shaped differently from the more common bison teeth that I've gotten ahold of in the past. So my current tentative ID is camelid, either camel or llama. If I'm right, I'd be incredibly excited - I've always been more interested in the more bizarre megafauna that used to live in Texas during the last ice age.  

I'd be grateful if anyone can be of any help in either confirming or providing new IDs for these two.

* The length of the occlusal surface for the second tooth is 2.10 cm. 

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Edited by GPayton
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Shellseeker
On 8/22/2021 at 9:39 PM, GPayton said:

So my current tentative ID is camelid, either camel or llama. If I'm right, I'd be incredibly excited - I've always been more interested in the more bizarre megafauna that used to live in Texas during the last ice age.  

I'd be grateful if anyone can be of any help in either confirming or providing new IDs for these two.

 

You should look at fossil antelope from Texas... Capromeryx

 

I Found RARE Fossil Antelope Teeth While Scuba Diving a ...

Edited by Shellseeker
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@Shellseeker - definitely a good suggestion, and one I hadn't considered as a possible ID. Unfortunately I've been able to find scant information about Texas antelope, but what I have found seems to be promising. Capromeryx teeth would definitely be too small to be comparable to the tooth I have, but the occlusal surface of extant pronghorn teeth seems to be a pretty good match. I just wish I could get ahold of some more reliable measurements.

@Harry Pristis - you're more knowledgable here than me, do you have any camel, llama, or antelope teeth in your collection that I can compare these to? 

Including fellow Texans @Lorne Ledger @garyc and @darrow in this as well since I always appreciate their insight. 

Edited by GPayton
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I don’t think I have any pronghorn teeth in my collection. Maybe some antler material, but I’m really not sure. Maybe @fossilus has some input?

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fossilus

My first impression is llama for the second tooth. You have a view that is nearly "end on" but it's a little hard to tell for sure llama, especially with the damage. There seems to be an offset between the lobes that you see in the llamas. 

I have one antelope tooth I found years ago on the Brazos, there is no offset between the lobes.

The first tooth could be camelops, I've found several, I'll post photos of mine tomorrow.

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Harry Pristis

Here's my recent goat (or sheep) mandible.  They are closely related, it seems.  This one is from the Santa Fe river.  It was the subject of a "quiz" on the Forum many moons ago; and, after much reading and head-scratching, I couldn't distinguish between goat and sheep. (The separate m3 probably could be either.)

 

goat_sheep.JPG.749a541c9f06881499e0129221d3d038.JPGgoat_m3.JPG.9e1cdde5eaf0b8c359ff354c8dbf6da6.JPG

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Lorne Ledger

I am also thinking Antilocaprid for the second tooth.  They tend to be small like that and I have found a few on both the Colorado and the Brazos over the years.  The top one looks to be camelid to me, but I have a few doubts.  Good finds!

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Harry Pristis

I think none of GPayton's teeth are camelid.  There are a ginormous number of sheep and goats in Texas, candidates that shouldn't be ignored.

 

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fossilus

The first tooth is too large to be from a goat and would either need to be Bison or Camelops.  I've found many of each in SE Texas- mostly Bison.  It may be too worn and I can't tell from the photo, but these are some shots of 2 associated, upper jaw, Camelops teeth that I have.  Camelops teeth start out larger and with age become smaller because they narrow towards their base.

Lingual, occlusal, and Labial views.  Lowers are longer and narrower in occlusal view.  Bison have a stylid that is missing on camelids.

 

376465593_camelopsuppers3.gif.9bcf94b5d3416087b81d5edaadffd8f2.gif

camelops uppers 2.gif

camelops uppers 1.gif

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Harry Pristis

Oops!  I wasn't considering the first tooth because of its poor condition.  Yes, it could be a large browser like bison.  

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Both teeth are permineralized, with the first being one of the most solid pieces of bone or tooth I've come across in quite some time - so if they were goat or sheep, they would have to be either the bighorn sheep or mountain goats that lived in North America during the Pleistocene and because their remains have never been found in Gulf Coast deposits in Texas I think it probably best to count them out. 

My main reason for suggesting camel/llama in the first place @Harry Pristis was based off of this picture you provided on your profile of several Hemiauchenia and Palaeolama teeth:

I see a lot of resemblance between the tooth in the first picture I posted and these, as well as those provided by @fossilus, even though half of my example is severely eroded. 

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Harry Pristis

 

I don't see the similarity to lamine camelid teeth.  I still think it's bovid.

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Lorne Ledger

Took me a while to come back to this topic, that second tooth could be goat/sheep but I doubt it considering where it was found.  I am still liking an antelope molar, but wouldn't rule out a deformed deer molar either.

 

Here is a pic of my Brazos River Antelope molar lower right M 3

Antelope1.jpg.b3f8706b87712b179222eab8bce230bc.jpg

Antelope2.jpg.c183324fe0db583822381b0f56ed17b4.jpg

 

I had this one identified for me back in the 90's at Rancho La Brea Tar Pits (my uncle worked there as a research associate).  

 

There are four recognized genera of antelope in the fossil record in North America each with several known species:  Capromeryx, Tetrameryx, Stockoceros and Antilocapra.   Capromeryx was a more heavy jawed antelope and along with Stockoceros ranged mostly in the west.  Tetrameryx and Antilocapra ranged from California to Florida.  Yours could be Capromeryx, they did occur in west texas and around Dallas.  Not saying yours is for sure antelope, but just posting this information as possibly useful.

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Harry Pristis
6 minutes ago, Lorne Ledger said:

 

 

Here is a pic of my Brazos River Antelope molar lower right M 3

Antelope1.jpg.b3f8706b87712b179222eab8bce230bc.jpg

Antelope2.jpg.c183324fe0db583822381b0f56ed17b4.jpg

 

 

 

 

Lorne, can you show us the occlusal surface of the tooth.  The image you provided seems to be the root surface of the tooth.

 

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Lorne Ledger

@Harry Pristis  Haha, sorry about that - thought that was the occlusal surface.   Not much more detail on the other end but a bit more.

 

224088922_Antelope3occlusal.jpg.335436fdf323c77b720ba4288686ace8.jpg

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Harry Pristis

Thanks . . . Looks like a reasonable ID.

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