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Extremely rare Carinodens belgicus front dentary teeth


ziggycardon

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Hi everyone, 

 

I currently have a friend in Morocco who recently found two teeth which he believes are the front dentary teeth of Carinodens which by itself are extremely rare but this tooth position especially. 

After doing some research I agree with my friend in Morocco about the ID to which he came to. But due to their rarity they are pretty pricey and because of that I wanted to have a second opinion just to be sure.

 

Thank you all in advance!
 

@jnoun11 @pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Care to chime in?

 

IMG-20210901-WA0019.thumb.jpg.ed83eeb95b9bea93001fd91fcd1f30c4.jpg

IMG-20210901-WA0003.thumb.jpg.606806f128daf09c4c1a9371929843c0.jpg

IMG-20210901-WA0007.thumb.jpg.e767b7af4b111360c418c93d507c5b43.jpg

IMG-20210901-WA0008.thumb.jpg.2e4d98e3fa308444d834d857f432d54c.jpg

IMG-20210901-WA0009.thumb.jpg.7ccf6d8cc7f5d53bc9030a10830ca929.jpg

IMG-20210901-WA0010.thumb.jpg.4bab4212bc128a49e96a234419dbe67e.jpg

 

 

IMG-20210901-WA0014.jpg.6182e86c7aa6fc75d8c60e3e22a00cba.jpg

IMG-20210901-WA0011.jpg.cea5e55caa5cfcf255005c4d7185732e.jpg

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IMG-20210901-WA0013.thumb.jpg.4b9223cc3ec0e6da4e18e4fe3b0cedfd.jpg

 

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

Hard to say, as I've never seen anterior dentary teeth from Carinodens belgicus, be it in person or in literature. The teeth certainly do belong to a durophagous mosasaurine and would have sat in an anterior position, probably the dentary, but without securely attributed specimens to compare against, I'd be very hesitant to assign them to C. belgicus. For one, the first drawing you provided seems to be the only one that shows the anterior dentary teeth being tall and conical; the other drawings and the photographs seem to suggest that even in anterior positions the teeth of C. belgicus remain rather squatted and laterally compressed. And even permitting the anterior teeth of C. belgicus to be taller and more conical, I would expect them to remain laterally compressed, as this is pretty much a hallmark of these kind of teeth. And it's exactly this lateral compression that I do not see in the three specimens you've been offered for sale. In fact, they look rather reminiscent of small anterior Globidens phospaticus teeth I have in my collection, albeit these may be slightly smaller still. Overall, though, I'd be hesitant to purchase these teeth, as - at least for me - there's too little evidence of them being C. belgicus and too great a likelihood of them just belonging to G. phosphaticus.

 

But, indeed, may be @jnoun11, @Praefectus or @LordTrilobite would know more :)

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4 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Hard to say, as I've never seen anterior dentary teeth from Carinodens belgicus, be it in person or in literature. The teeth certainly do belong to a durophagous mosasaurine and would have sat in an anterior position, probably the dentary, but without securely attributed specimens to compare against, I'd be very hesitant to assign them to C. belgicus. For one, the first drawing you provided seems to be the only one that shows the anterior dentary teeth being tall and conical; the other drawings and the photographs seem to suggest that even in anterior positions the teeth of C. belgicus remain rather squatted and laterally compressed. And even permitting the anterior teeth of C. belgicus to be taller and more conical, I would expect them to remain laterally compressed, as this is pretty much a hallmark of these kind of teeth. And it's exactly this lateral compression that I do not see in the three specimens you've been offered for sale. In fact, they look rather reminiscent of small anterior Globidens phospaticus teeth I have in my collection, albeit these may be slightly smaller still. Overall, though, I'd be hesitant to purchase these teeth, as - at least for me - there's too little evidence of them being C. belgicus and too great a likelihood of them just belonging to G. phosphaticus.

 

But, indeed, may be @jnoun11, @Praefectus or @LordTrilobite would know more :)

Thank you very much for your imput, I am still a bit hesitant as well. 
I would like to buyt them because I've never really seen one before, but I not sure if I am ready to commit to 2 of those teeth.

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LordTrilobite

Having held casts of a number of specimens I can tell you that, yes, the anterior teeth should be compressed. They are less compressed than the mid and posterior teeth. But it should still be quite notable. Anterior Carinodens teeth are also absolutely tiny. These look rather big.

 

I'd like to see photos of the ventral and dorsal views. But I think these might not be compressed enough to be Carinodens.

 

Sorry to say, but right now I would lean towards them being anterior Globidens teeth. Which are still nice as you don't see those as often.

 

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
7 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said:

Anterior Carinodens teeth are also absolutely tiny. These look rather big.

 

Yeah, I wanted to note that too, based on what I'm making out from the photographs and drawings above :)

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LordTrilobite

Also here's my reconstruction I made years ago based on the known elements, with scale.

 

carinodens_reconstruction_dentary.thumb.jpg.c6a605001c930b1d0adaea3264553b72.jpg

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Manticocerasman

not my field of expertise but is C. belgicus  not only found in the Mons bassin in Belgium? I havn't seen pictures of them from other locations yet, I dont know how widespread they are.

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LordTrilobite
1 minute ago, Manticocerasman said:

not my field of expertise but is C. belgicus  not only found in the Mons bassin in Belgium? I havn't seen pictures of them from other locations yet, I dont know how widespread they are.

The type species and another are also known from the phosphate beds in Morocco.

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
6 minutes ago, Manticocerasman said:

not my field of expertise but is C. belgicus  not only found in the Mons bassin in Belgium? I havn't seen pictures of them from other locations yet, I dont know how widespread they are.

 

The type species is indeed defined in Europe, but it has since been discovered in, and described from, Morocco as well. See Bardet, Houssaye, Vincent, Suberbiola, Amaghzaz, Jourani, & Meslouh (2014):

 

post-4301-0-49771000-1430928004.jpg

Edited by pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
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Thank you all for the imput already! 

As mentioned before Carinodens Belgicus is indeed described from Morocco as well, I managed to already aquire 5 Carinodens belgicus teeth (2 of which I already sold) from this person last month. But he never found any posterior or anterior teeth before, but like mentioned here it is probably more likely that these are Globidens due to not being compressed enough.

 

Here are pictures of my Carinodens teeth from Morocco

 

14266036_163051720017441218(7).jpg.48f797eaa9f9435c5b1c395ce78fd27e.jpg

302825005_163051720017441218(6).jpg.0340e70b7cff311f2a71eaea39df1661.jpg

560611887_163051720017441218(8).jpg.1c0f8aef818088de77ce5862b87ecd7d.jpg

1638679690_162936814323341444(37).jpg.fec8bf9b0d0ac1f5c6a80400b21a9b1f.jpg1479281747_162936814323341444(36).jpg.3ba6edea3b9f42e0bd5d60bc34b0702d.jpg

973204392_162936814323341444(38).jpg.0a2756fbcefe5fbcac5a3dc9b47acefc.jpg1059099194_162936814323341444(40).jpg.6ff5269b958d866223ad416f83819fa2.jpg

 

EDIT: might it be wise to send an message to the natural history museum in Maastricht with photos of these teeth? 

Edited by ziggycardon
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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
4 minutes ago, ziggycardon said:

As mentioned before Carinodens Belgicus is indeed described from Morocco as well, I managed to already aquire 5 Carinodens belgicus teeth (2 of which I already sold) from this person last month.

 

Wow! Seems you really struck the Carinodens-jackpot then! Including the two specimens you put up, I've only ever seen a grand total of seven specimens up for sale over the past three years - though one online vendor has had a couple of jaws sections up for sale in this same period as well...

 

 

10 minutes ago, ziggycardon said:

might it be wise to send an message to the natural history museum in Maastricht with photos of these teeth? 

 

You mean to check whether these teeth could be Carinodens belgicus after all? I don't think they'd come back to you with a different answer than these teeth belonging to G. phosphaticus, but it's always free to ask ;)

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40 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

Wow! Seems you really struck the Carinodens-jackpot then! Including the two specimens you put up, I've only ever seen a grand total of seven specimens up for sale over the past three years - though one online vendor has had a couple of jaws sections up for sale in this same period as well...

 

 

 

You mean to check whether these teeth could be Carinodens belgicus after all? I don't think they'd come back to you with a different answer than these teeth belonging to G. phosphaticus, but it's always free to ask ;)

Thank you for the help, I don't think I will bother with messaging the NHM Maastricht.

I might be able to negotiate price on these is they are Globidens or get an other rare Mosasaur alongside.

 

2 quick related questions now I have all you guys attention.

 

I remember that there was a time that everyone refered to Moroccan Globidens phosphaticus teeth as Igdamanosaurus aegyptiacus but now everyone calls them Globidens again. How best to label these teeth or are both species present in Khouribga?

 

 

Question 2: I am currently trying to get as many different Mosasaur species from Khouribga, but what species are now actually all present? Cause it changes quite a lot and depends on where you read it. 

 

I know these are described there:

- Progathodon anceps 

- Prognathodon currii (probably soon to be revised to another genus)

- Prognathodon giganteus (actually P. Anceps?)

- Mosasaurus beaugei

- Halisaurus arambourgi

- Halisaurus walkeri?

- Eremiasaurus heterodontus

- Gavialimimus almaghribensis

- Pluridens serpentis

- Globidens phosphaticus/Igdamanosaurus aegytiacus

- Carinodens belgicus

- Xenodens calminechari

 

Present but not officially described: 

- 2 types of Tylosaurus sp. (Slender & Robust)

- Mosasaurus hoffmani

- Prognathodon solvayi

 

Did I miss any in my list? 

 

Thank you all in advance?

 

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
2 hours ago, ziggycardon said:

I remember that there was a time that everyone refered to Moroccan Globidens phosphaticus teeth as Igdamanosaurus aegyptiacus but now everyone calls them Globidens again. How best to label these teeth or are both species present in Khouribga?

 

While Igdamanosaurus aegypticus is also a durophagous species of mosasaurine and seems to also be present at Ouled Abdoun, the morphology of its teeth differ markedly from those of Globidens phosphaticus, with those of I. aegypticus looking more like foreshortened P. currii teeth. The reason vendors briefly switched names is probably due to information on I. aegypticus being sparse and hard to come by, as well as the confusion in naming between G. phosphaticus and G. aegypticus (once people switched from using Globidens phosphaticus to Globidens aegypticus, it's an easy shift to move on to Igdamanosaurus aegypticus). Your teeth are clearly G. phosphaticus. For I. aegypticus, please see the below thread:

 

 

 

2 hours ago, ziggycardon said:

Question 2: I am currently trying to get as many different Mosasaur species from Khouribga, but what species are now actually all present? Cause it changes quite a lot and depends on where you read it.

 

  • Prognathodon anceps, which may or may not be the same as Prognathodon giganteus (keep an eye on this thread, where I still hope to contribute to the discussion at some point)
  • Prognathodon currii
  • Prognathodon solvayi (see here)
  • Mosasaurus beaugei
  • Mosasaurus hoffmannii (see here)
  • Globidens phosphaticus
  • Globidens simplex (see here, but may be G. phosphaticus)
  • Carinodens belgicus
  • Carinodens minalmar (although only Bardet reports on this species)
  • Xenodens calminechari
  • Igdamanosaurus aegypticus (see here)
  • Eremiasaurus heterodontus
  • Halisaurus arambourgi
  • Pluridens serpentis (used to be referred to as Halisaurus walkeri)
  • Gavialimimus almaghribensis
  • At least one type of tylosaurine (see here and here) - although I indeed believe there are two different morphotypes present. The one may be Tylosaurus, whereas the other shows enough synapomorphies to consider re-erecting Hainosaurus (personal opinion).

 

The reason why this list differs so much depending on where you read it, is because new discoveries and descriptions are being published with a high frequency and take some time to dissipate first amongst the scientific community, later amongst fossil traders and only after to collectors. At the same time, a lot of this material is described simply based on dental morphotypes, which, moreover, may show overlap with other species due to mosasaur heterodonty and are therefore contested. Names change as new material is discovered and described, and so the story goes on. But this is generally an issue in mosasaur research, however, and is not restricted to just the Moroccan phosphates...

Edited by pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
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17 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

While Igdamanosaurus aegypticus is also a durophagous species of mosasaurine and seems to also be present at Ouled Abdoun, the morphology of its teeth differ markedly from those of Globidens phosphaticus, with those of I. aegypticus looking more like foreshortened P. currii teeth. The reason vendors briefly switched names is probably due to information on I. aegypticus being sparse and hard to come by, as well as the confusion in naming between G. phosphaticus and G. aegypticus (once people switched from using Globidens phosphaticus to Globidens aegypticus, it's an easy shift to move on to Igdamanosaurus aegypticus). Your teeth are clearly G. phosphaticus. For I. aegypticus, please see the below thread:

 

 

 

 

  • Prognathodon anceps, which may or may not be the same as Prognathodon giganteus (keep an eye on this thread, where I still hope to contribute to the discussion at some point)
  • Prognathodon currii
  • Prognathodon solvayi (see here)
  • Mosasaurus beaugei
  • Mosasaurus hoffmannii (see here)
  • Globidens phosphaticus
  • Globidens simplex (see here, but may be G. phosphaticus)
  • Carinodens belgicus
  • Carinodens minalmar (although only Bardet reports on this species)
  • Xenodens calminechari
  • Igdamanosaurus aegypticus (see here)
  • Eremiasaurus heterodontus
  • Halisaurus arambourgi
  • Pluridens serpentis (used to be referred to as Halisaurus walkeri)
  • Gavialimimus almaghribensis
  • At least one type of tylosaurine - although I indeed believe there are two different morphotypes present. The one may be Tylosaurus, whereas the other shows enough synapomorphies to consider re-erecting Hainosaurus (personal opinion).

The reason why this list differs so much depending on where you read it, is because new discoveries and descriptions are being published with a high frequency and take some time to dissipate first amongst the scientific community, later amongst fossil traders and only after to collectors. At the same time, a lot of this material is described simply based on dental morphotypes, which, moreover, may show overlap with other species due to mosasaur heterodonty and are therefore contested. Names change as new material is discovered and described, and so the story goes on. But this is generally an issue in mosasaur research, however, and is not restricted to just the Moroccan phosphates...

Thank you very much for clearing that up! 

And I am glad my list was fairly accurate and complete. Thanks for the imput that gives me a better view of the teeth where I have to look out for!

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
8 minutes ago, ziggycardon said:

Thank you very much for clearing that up! 

And I am glad my list was fairly accurate and complete. Thanks for the imput that gives me a better view of the teeth where I have to look out for!

 

Good luck! I've been where you are and know from experience that some of these can be extremely hard to come by... :headscratch:

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15 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

Good luck! I've been where you are and know from experience that some of these can be extremely hard to come by... :headscratch:

Haha thank you! :)

I know it will be a hard quest indeed that could take years! 

I am already happy to have managed to have added Carinodens belgicus and a Tylosaurus to the collection.

I might be able to add an Mosasaur hoffmani and perhaps a Pluridens to the collection but we will have to see.

I know Prognathodon solvayi will be extremely difficult to get and that Xenodens is probably impossible to get.

And besides that I still hope to get some Dutch/Belgian and some American Mosasaur teeth.

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Oops. Sorry I'm late to the topic. Nice anterior teeth. I think they are Globidens also. 

 

7 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Prognathodon anceps, which may or may not be the same as Prognathodon giganteus (keep an eye on this thread, where I still hope to contribute to the discussion at some point)

To add some more confusion to this issue, the most recent publications on Moroccan mosasaurs (Longrich et al., 2021a, 2021b) have excluded listing both Prognathodon sp. (=Leiodon anceps) and Prognathodon giganteus from Morocco. Instead, the authors are listing Prognathodon saturator as in Morocco. I wonder if this was intentional or an oversight. 

 

6 hours ago, ziggycardon said:

Mosasaur hoffmani

Good luck :Smiling: They are hard to find and identify, but they are out there. I found this one for sale last week and think it has a good chance of being M. hoffmannii. They are so easy to confuse with M. beaugei in blurry seller pictures. 

 

241153134_179801807514070_3055066541181850438_n.jpg.8a8033848330314a68cc35e1f4f69bc7.jpg241325010_596744284837632_5822900476147162179_n.jpg.1fa24d5048c45d5fddb15814cf6cfef4.jpg241117841_2831331110513179_2083530543359350583_n.jpg.032bf981b4883758536e0997436cdc7c.jpg241177552_214779723959774_4715764314618080670_n.jpg.9a47f0967989458dd0bbce5653b4a0ab.jpg

 

6 hours ago, ziggycardon said:

Tylosaurus

Cool. Can you show a picture? 

 

Hopefully there will be some new publications soon that help elucidate the species diversity of mosasaurs in Morocco. 

 

 

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Harry Pristis

Those anterior teeth are quite attractive.  I had not paid a lot of attention to tooth position, but I think I have a couple of anterior teeth here:

 

globidenspremolars.jpg.61a3009324af3b35b6487a508df7451e.jpg

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21 hours ago, Praefectus said:

Good luck :Smiling: They are hard to find and identify, but they are out there. I found this one for sale last week and think it has a good chance of being M. hoffmannii. They are so easy to confuse with M. beaugei in blurry seller pictures. 

 

241153134_179801807514070_3055066541181850438_n.jpg.8a8033848330314a68cc35e1f4f69bc7.jpg241325010_596744284837632_5822900476147162179_n.jpg.1fa24d5048c45d5fddb15814cf6cfef4.jpg241117841_2831331110513179_2083530543359350583_n.jpg.032bf981b4883758536e0997436cdc7c.jpg241177552_214779723959774_4715764314618080670_n.jpg.9a47f0967989458dd0bbce5653b4a0ab.jpg

 

Cool. Can you show a picture? 

 

Hopefully there will be some new publications soon that help elucidate the species diversity of mosasaurs in Morocco. 

 

 

Thank you, I'll ask photos of the possible Mosasaurus hoffmanni tooth and of the Pluridens tooth. 

 

As for my Tylosaurus tooth, these are curently the only pictures I currently have as I am away from home for a couple of days. :)

 

13768551_163051720017441218(4).jpg.0e8becf6052a5a2f9e5b0a1491f32d1c.jpg.8edf7900034417e0f46bb8e00e7e791f.jpg

841092064_163051720017441218(3).jpg.18eda2656399abe57ce018c1b0aabb91.jpg.a1c95371c51f4820396e4c680ad9f3ab.jpg

823904639_163051720017441218(2).jpg.951806db7a0c44ac4127547b0c8cd022.jpg.231c0a2e0f569f2c545fbdfaddb3bd4c.jpg

1368479017_163051720017441218(5).jpg.bb895610fd9496ed221d2b13aec1f8cc.jpg.07c5a0fb7f2126bc3c9f7dc8198ec3cf.jpg

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
4 hours ago, ziggycardon said:

Thank you, I'll ask photos of the possible Mosasaurus hoffmanni tooth and of the Pluridens tooth. 

 

As for my Tylosaurus tooth, these are curently the only pictures I currently have as I am away from home for a couple of days. :)

 

13768551_163051720017441218(4).jpg.0e8becf6052a5a2f9e5b0a1491f32d1c.jpg.8edf7900034417e0f46bb8e00e7e791f.jpg841092064_163051720017441218(3).jpg.18eda2656399abe57ce018c1b0aabb91.jpg.a1c95371c51f4820396e4c680ad9f3ab.jpg823904639_163051720017441218(2).jpg.951806db7a0c44ac4127547b0c8cd022.jpg.231c0a2e0f569f2c545fbdfaddb3bd4c.jpg1368479017_163051720017441218(5).jpg.bb895610fd9496ed221d2b13aec1f8cc.jpg.07c5a0fb7f2126bc3c9f7dc8198ec3cf.jpg

 

Oooh! That's a nice one, seen "in real life" like that! :D

 

3 hours ago, ziggycardon said:

This is the possible Mosasaurus hoffmanni tooth, any thoughts?

 

20210904_212934.jpg20210904_212842.jpg20210904_212922.jpg20210904_212650.jpg20210904_212824.jpg20210904_212802.jpg

 

20210904_212904.jpg

 

Always hard to say from these somewhat blurry and out-of-focus vendor photographs... It's definitely mosasaurine, but I'd say the base is too compressed to be M. hoffmannii. And with both labial prism faces and lingual facets being rather prominent, I'd say it's more likely to be M. beaugei than M. hoffmannii.

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5 hours ago, ziggycardon said:

As for my Tylosaurus tooth, these are curently the only pictures I currently have as I am away from home for a couple of days. :)

Nice tooth!

 

4 hours ago, ziggycardon said:

This is the possible Mosasaurus hoffmanni tooth, any thoughts?

I second the Mosasaurus beaugei  identification. The prism faces are hard to see, but definitely present. 

 

20210904_212650.jpg.84728dc031ab67ced338c78dece0f6a3.jpg.6a2f5b2f34db92ab70b416f1ee2720bb.jpg

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