Muddy creek, underlying Cretaceous?

[Notidanodon]

Hi guys, I have this serratolamna from muddy creek,  now s,gafsana is described from here but apparently this looks more like older serratolamna teeth. The age of the formation here is ypresian, but I was wondering if anyone knew of any older underlying strata that may be able to produce an older serratolamna or if this one is just an odd ball  thanks

[Fossildude19]

Cropped, rotated, and brightened:

 

 

[siteseer]

Hi Will,

 

I think that tooth is a lower lateral of Serratolamna.  I don't know of underlying Cretaceous sediments at the Muddy Creek site.  There are Paleocene layers but I think all the teeth found at that site are early Eocene.

 

Jess

[Troodon]

To support Jess's comments 

Early Eocene Vertebrates and Plants from the
Fisher/Sullivan Site
(Nanjemoy Formation) Stafford County, Virginia

 

[Notidanodon]

5 hours ago, Troodon said:

To support Jess's comments 

Early Eocene Vertebrates and Plants from the
Fisher/Sullivan Site
(Nanjemoy Formation) Stafford County, Virginia

 

thanks  thats a nice diagram

6 hours ago, siteseer said:

Hi Will,

 

I think that tooth is a lower lateral of Serratolamna.  I don't know of underlying Cretaceous sediments at the Muddy Creek site.  There are Paleocene layers but I think all the teeth found at that site are early Eocene.

 

Jess

Thanks, if it has to be eocene then it is serratolamna gafsana  

[bthemoose]

Is it possible this tooth is Brachycarcharias lerichei? The photo below is the artificial dentition from the Nanjemoy Formation on Elasmo.com (the site only shows the labial sides unfortunately) and to me your tooth looks somewhat similar to A2. The A2 in their dentition has two cusplets on each side, but the second (outer) cusplet on the mesial side is reduced compared to the one on the distal side, so perhaps yours could be worn off or just absent from this individual?

 

 

I also have some small teeth from the Muddy Creek site (see below) that if they were Cretaceous in age I would probably call Serratolamna serrata, but I've currently categorized them (possibly incorrectly) as B. lerichei, as they don't look like the images of S. gafsana I've been able to find online (though I haven't been able to find very many). If they are S. gafsana, I'd be happy to find that out.  My first tooth below looks similar to yours, though I can't tell if yours has a nutrient groove.

 

Tooth #1: 8mm slant, 7mm wide

 

Tooth #2: 11mm slant, 11mm wide

 

Tooth #3: 6mm slant, 6mm wide

 

 

[MarcoSr]

48 minutes ago, will stevenson said:

thanks  thats a nice diagram

Thanks, if it has to be eocene then it is serratolamna gafsana  

 

The tooth is Brachycarcharias lerichei.  I have thousands of them from Muddy Creek.  Serratolamna gafsana is pretty uncommon from Muddy Creek.  I have 7 or 8 from 25 years of collecting.

Marco Sr.

[bthemoose]

Just now, MarcoSr said:

 

The tooth is Brachycarcharias lerichei.  I have thousands of them from Muddy Creek.  Serratolamna gafsana is pretty uncommon from Muddy Creek.  I have 7 or 8 from 25 years of collecting.

 

 

Marco Sr.

 

I'm glad the significant time that I spent squinting at that Elasmo image was well spent. 

[MarcoSr]

7 minutes ago, bthemoose said:

I also have some small teeth from the Muddy Creek site (see below) that if they were Cretaceous in age I would probably call Serratolamna serrata, but I've currently categorized them (possibly incorrectly) as B. lerichei, as they don't look like the images of S. gafsana I've been able to find online (though I haven't been able to find very many). If they are S. gafsana, I'd be happy to find that out.  My first tooth below looks similar to yours, though I can't tell if yours has a nutrient groove.

 

Tooth #1: 8mm slant, 7mm wide

 

Tooth #2: 11mm slant, 11mm wide

 

Tooth #3: 6mm slant, 6mm wide

 

 

 

The color and preservation of these teeth don't match Muddy Creek.  Also, they don't look like Brachycarcharias lerichei.  They do look more like  Serratolamna serrata.

Marco Sr.

[bthemoose]

13 minutes ago, MarcoSr said:

 

The color and preservation of these teeth don't match Muddy Creek.  Also, they don't look like Brachycarcharias lerichei.  They do look more like  Serratolamna serrata.

Marco Sr.

Hmm, well that’s too bad if they were mislabeled. There were a bunch of similarly preserved micro teeth up on the auction site recently that were labeled as Muddy Creek — they’re from an estate, so sounds like the collection site info got mixed up. I may post these and a few others separately to see if anyone recognizes the preservation. Thanks for the heads up.

[MarcoSr]

8 hours ago, bthemoose said:

Hmm, well that’s too bad if they were mislabeled. There were a bunch of similarly preserved micro teeth up on the auction site recently that were labeled as Muddy Creek — they’re from an estate, so sounds like the collection site info got mixed up. I may post these and a few others separately to see if anyone recognizes the preservation. Thanks for the heads up.

 

Our favorite sales and auction site has had a good number of posts of Muddy Creek specimens from the estate of George Wolf, posted by his son, over the last few years.  George was an avid micro tooth collector, like I am.  Years ago, I traded two full trips worth of processed Muddy Creek matrix with George for processed matrix from Oklahoma and Texas.  So I know George had a good number of Muddy Creek specimens in his collection.  I looked at a number of his son's posts, and the specimens were definitely Muddy Creek specimens.  However, I remember seeing a couple Muddy Creek posts (not sure if they were from George's collection) where the teeth looked like they were from the Cretaceous and not from Muddy Creek.

 

Marco Sr.

[Notidanodon]

22 minutes ago, MarcoSr said:

 

Our favorite sales and auction site has had a good number of posts of Muddy Creek specimens from the estate of George Wolf, posted by his son, over the last few years.  George was an avid micro tooth collector, like I am.  Years ago, I traded two full trips worth of processed Muddy Creek matrix with George for processed matrix from Oklahoma and Texas.  So I know George had a good number of Muddy Creek specimens in his collection.  I looked at a number of his son's posts, and the specimens were definitely Muddy Creek specimens.  However, I remember seeing a couple Muddy Creek posts (not sure if they were from George's collection) where the teeth looked like they were from the Cretaceous and not from Muddy Creek.

 

Marco Sr.

Thanks for your help   This tooth came from one of those lots and I can be fairly sure it’s from muddy creek

[Notidanodon]

10 hours ago, MarcoSr said:

 

The tooth is Brachycarcharias lerichei.  I have thousands of them from Muddy Creek.  Serratolamna gafsana is pretty uncommon from Muddy Creek.  I have 7 or 8 from 25 years of collecting.

 

 

Marco Sr.

Thanks for your help, I’m going to try and look into it more  

[Notidanodon]

10 hours ago, bthemoose said:

Is it possible this tooth is Brachycarcharias lerichei? The photo below is the artificial dentition from the Nanjemoy Formation on Elasmo.com (the site only shows the labial sides unfortunately) and to me your tooth looks somewhat similar to A2. The A2 in their dentition has two cusplets on each side, but the second (outer) cusplet on the mesial side is reduced compared to the one on the distal side, so perhaps yours could be worn off or just absent from this individual?

 

 

I also have some small teeth from the Muddy Creek site (see below) that if they were Cretaceous in age I would probably call Serratolamna serrata, but I've currently categorized them (possibly incorrectly) as B. lerichei, as they don't look like the images of S. gafsana I've been able to find online (though I haven't been able to find very many). If they are S. gafsana, I'd be happy to find that out.  My first tooth below looks similar to yours, though I can't tell if yours has a nutrient groove.

 

Tooth #1: 8mm slant, 7mm wide

 

Tooth #2: 11mm slant, 11mm wide

 

Tooth #3: 6mm slant, 6mm wide

 

 

It could be possible !  thanks for your help, I personally thought the cusps matched serratolamna a lot better as they face more outwards but I will look into it!

[MarcoSr]

On 9/4/2021 at 8:22 AM, will stevenson said:

Thanks for your help   This tooth came from one of those lots and I can be fairly sure it’s from muddy creek

 

Wow, seeing your original tooth in this gem jar has changed my opinion on your tooth ID.  These teeth in my humble opinion are not from the Eocene of Muddy Creek in Virginia, but if Eocene and not Cretaceous, they seem more likely from the Eocene of Alabama or Mississippi from the Tallahatta Formation.  They might also be from the Eocene Bashi Formation of Mississippi (Red Hot Truck Stop location) where gafsana or aschersoni (or whatever the latest name is for the species, as it has changed a lot) is very common.  Shark tooth provenance is key to a solid shark tooth ID.  So now I'm not convinced like I was that your tooth is  Brachycarcharias lerichei.

Marco Sr.

[bthemoose]

@MarcoSr you’re correct of course on the source of my teeth. Teeth #1 and #3 from my earlier post came from the same group of auction listings as @will stevenson’s (my tooth #2 is also from the Wolf Collection but was listed a bit later and on its own so could be from somewhere else still, though was also listed as from Muddy Creek).
 

Here are the other possible Alabama/Mississippi teeth I got from those “Muddy Creek” batches—shown in a 1.5” gem jar (teeth #1 and #3 from my previous post are at the top):

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by bthemoose

[MarcoSr]

4 hours ago, bthemoose said:

@MarcoSr you’re correct of course on the source of my teeth. Teeth #1 and #3 from my earlier post came from the same group of auction listings as @will stevenson’s (my tooth #2 is also from the Wolf Collection but was listed a bit later and on its own so could be from somewhere else still, though was also listed as from Muddy Creek).
 

Here are the other possible Alabama/Mississippi teeth I got from those “Muddy Creek” batches—shown in a 1.5” gem jar (teeth #1 and #3 from my previous post are at the top):

 

 

I can tell you with 100% certainty that the majority of those teeth in your gem jar picture did not come from the Muddy Creek matrix that I sent to George.  There was a funky layer (brown/orange) at Muddy Creek that had a very high acidity level because of the high concentration of pyrite in it. That layer had teeth with different colors (white, cream, amber, brown and even blue) but a lot of the teeth were pitted from the acid, some enamel was powdery, and a number of the teeth looked slightly reworked.  You could get a few nice teeth from this layer, but it wasn't worth the effort to me.  So I never intentionally collected that layer after initially sampling it.  I would get close at some trips and find an occasional brown/amber tooth like in your gem jar picture, but the vast majority of the teeth that I have from Muddy Creek are shades of gray or are black.  I do know George received supposed Muddy Creek matrix from a few other people who may have collected that funky layer.  I also know that George was an experienced collector who would have noticed right away if the supposed Muddy Creek matrix contained Cretaceous instead of Eocene teeth.  I made over 230 trips to Muddy Creek over a 25-year period, and collected at least eight 5 gallon buckets of formation (partially processed in the stream and finally processed at home) each trip, so I'm very familiar with what the shark teeth look like.  I know of only one other collector, out of the hundred or so collectors who collected the area, who collected as many times as I did, and we made a lot of trips together.  I saw a lot of George's son's Muddy Creek teeth posts and the teeth definitely looked like they were from Muddy Creek.  However, the teeth in your gem jar and those in Will's just don't look right to me as Muddy Creek teeth.

 

 

Edit:  Here are a few of my gem jar displays from Muddy Creek in one of my map chest drawers.  If you blow up the picture, you can see the teeth colors.

 

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr.

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by MarcoSr
added displays picture

[Al Dente]

I agree with Marco Sr’s comments. I think all these teeth are Maastrichtian. The preservation is very nice. I think you have Serratolamna serrata, Odontaspis aculeatus and Carcharias samhammeri.

 

 

[bthemoose]

Thank you both! @Al Dente, would you hazard any guesses as to where these might be from -- if you've seen similar preservation before?

 

Also, I had identified the posterior tooth in the middle, lower right of my gem jar photo as Palaeohypotodus rutoti, based on labial folds, though that ID obviously wouldn't apply if these teeth are Maastrichtian rather than Eocene in age. Can Carcharias samhammeri have such folds or do you have any other thoughts on what this one might be? 

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by bthemoose

[Al Dente]

35 minutes ago, bthemoose said:

Also, I had identified the posterior tooth in the middle, lower right of my gem jar photo as Palaeohypotodus rutoti, based on labial folds, though that ID obviously wouldn't apply if these teeth are Maastrichtian rather than Eocene in age. Can Carcharias samhammeri have such folds or do you have any other thoughts on what this one might be? 

Yes, these folds are common on the lateral- posterior teeth of many species of sand tigers including modern Carcharias. I checked my C. samhammeri to make sure and most of the posterior teeth had them.

[Kikokuryu]

@MarcoSr Well, since we're on this topic. I should probably get mine checked as well so I don't have to make a new post down the road when I forget.

 

I believe these are all Maastrichtian then since their preservation all seems to be the same? I ended up piling them all up in a single lot, so if any are actually Muddy Creek, I'll have to separate them. Don't know about the isolated single tooth. I honestly didn't know what the Muddy Creek material looked like, so I just took it at face value.

 

Mostly, I really want to know is if the croc teeth are actually Muddy Creek. That was sort of the main thing I was after in that lot of "Muddy Creek" specimens.

 

Also @will stevenson @bthemoose, I don't think it's too late to possibly get a clarification on the ID. There might be an old label or notes lying around that could point towards a specific locale if it isn't Muddy Creek. I might ask sometime this week, but if you do so as well, let me know if you get any results.

 

Original photos from listing except for the last 2 group photos which I took.

 

 

[MarcoSr]

13 hours ago, Kikokuryu said:

@MarcoSr Well, since we're on this topic. I should probably get mine checked as well so I don't have to make a new post down the road when I forget.

 

I believe these are all Maastrichtian then since their preservation all seems to be the same? I ended up piling them all up in a single lot, so if any are actually Muddy Creek, I'll have to separate them. Don't know about the isolated single tooth. I honestly didn't know what the Muddy Creek material looked like, so I just took it at face value.

 

Mostly, I really want to know is if the croc teeth are actually Muddy Creek. That was sort of the main thing I was after in that lot of "Muddy Creek" specimens.

 

Also @will stevenson @bthemoose, I don't think it's too late to possibly get a clarification on the ID. There might be an old label or notes lying around that could point towards a specific locale if it isn't Muddy Creek. I might ask sometime this week, but if you do so as well, let me know if you get any results.

 

Original photos from listing except for the last 2 group photos which I took.

 

 

 

Your first tooth does look like a Brachycarcharias lerichei from Muddy Creek.  However, I don't usually see that shiny wear on the root lobes.  Most teeth are pristine.

 

Your other smaller teeth look like they definitely have Cretaceous teeth mixed in.  The colors don't look right on a lot of them for Muddy Creek.

 

It would be impossible for me to tell on the croc teeth.  The preservation/color of your top croc tooth in the picture doesn't look right for Muddy Creek,  I can tell you that the croc teeth that I have from Muddy Creek are all pretty small and easily fit in a 1" gem jar (most are 1/2" or smaller), except for the few that I have with roots like in the below display.

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr.

[Notidanodon]

Wow this is a real mystery!  ive contacted the seller to see what they might know  

[Notidanodon]

1 hour ago, MarcoSr said:

 

Your first tooth does look like a Brachycarcharias lerichei from Muddy Creek.  However, I don't usually see that shiny wear on the root lobes.  Most teeth are pristine.

 

Your other smaller teeth look like they definitely have Cretaceous teeth mixed in.  The colors don't look right on a lot of them for Muddy Creek.

 

It would be impossible for me to tell on the croc teeth.  The preservation of your top croc tooth in the picture doesn't look right for Muddy Creek,  I can tell you that the croc teeth that I have from Muddy Creek are all pretty small and easily fit in a 1" gem jar (most are 1/2" or smaller), except for the few that I have with roots like in the below display.

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr.

Thanks for your help Marco , great collection youve got there  

[Kikokuryu]

4 hours ago, MarcoSr said:

Your first tooth does look like a Brachycarcharias lerichei from Muddy Creek.  However, I don't usually see that shiny wear on the root lobes.  Most teeth are pristine.

 

Your other smaller teeth look like they definitely have Cretaceous teeth mixed in.  The colors don't look right on a lot of them for Muddy Creek.

 

It would be impossible for me to tell on the croc teeth.  The preservation/color of your top croc tooth in the picture doesn't look right for Muddy Creek,  I can tell you that the croc teeth that I have from Muddy Creek are all pretty small and easily fit in a 1" gem jar (most are 1/2" or smaller), except for the few that I have with roots like in the below display.

 

Well, that's unfortunate. Though I'm confident that a locale could probably be obtained since every single specimen from that lot around early August seemed to have similar preservation. There has to be something written down somewhere.

 

Fortunately, they leave feedback so you can go back and look at all the specimens that were sold around that time. I dug up some of the more sparse or one-off single specimens from "Muddy Creek". Perhaps these could solidify that they definitely are not Muddy Creek 100%, or perhaps complicate things further. Maybe it sparks a light-bulb moment, who knows.

 

We got a lobster or crustacean, nurse shark teeth, shark cartilage, and sawfish rostrum. These were all listed I think at the same time the crocs and the shark teeth were, so there's a good chance they came from the same box, storage, or display they were kept in.

 

 

I did also find teeth labeled as being from the Saratoga Formation (?) in Hempstead County, Arkansas that had a similar shiny wear on the root lobes. Can't really find any information on them, but just leaving that out there. Maybe it might help?

 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Kikokuryu