California Limestone

[jsw]

I was wondering if anyone on here had any information about the Hosselkus Limestone formation of northern CA. From what I've been able to find online, the formation is from the Late Triassic and has yielded numerous fossils. However, most of the information online is from the early 1900's. Does anyone have or know where I could find more information? Thanks. I've included an excerpt from a Forest Service report about the area. Thanks.

"Initial interest in the area focused entirely on the limestone element....a rich Triassic fossil assemblage (including ammonites, brachiopods, corals, and marine reptiles), and more recent Pleistocene vertebrate fossils in cave deposits. In 1895 J.P. Smith of Stanford University collected ichthyosaur fossils from the area. Until ca. 1920 several paleontologists including J.C. Merriam and E.L. Furlong of the University of California visited the area and amassed the greatest collection of Late Triassic fossils in California. In all, over 210 species of fossil invertebrates (including ammonites, corals, brachiopods, and other mollusks) are known from the area (Hirschfeld 1975, Luft 1975). The ichthyosaurs of the area have provided virtually all that is known about this group during the late Triassic period in North America. When these were described by Merriam (1908) they included five new species of the genus Shastasaurus and three new genera (Leptocheirus, Toretocnemus,and Delphinosaurus). In addition to the ichthyosaurs, the area has preserved the only known remains of the order Thalatosauria in the Western Hemisphere. Research in the early and mid-1970's by Jens and Kathy Munthe from U.C. Berkeley confirmed that caves in the Hosselkus Limestone contain fossil representatives of all vertebrate classes including at least one species each of fish and salamander, several snake species, many birds (including Gymnogyps, the California condor), and the following mammals: Sorex (shrew), Scapanus (mole), Sylvalagus (cottontail), Aplodontia (mountain beaver), Sciurus (tree squirrel), Thomomys (pocket gopher), Neotoma (woodrat), Peromyscus (deer mouse), Martes (Marten), Odocoileus (deer), Euceratherium (scrub ox), and at least one species each of Microtine mice, ground squirrels, and Vespertilionid bats (Hirschfeld 1975)."

-Josh

Edited February 24, 2010 by jsw

[Plantguy]

Josh, did you already run into this stuff????

USGS (aka United States Geological Survey) has something. Primary reference: A. Hyatt and J. P. Smith. 1905. Triassic cephalopod genera of America. United States Geological Survey Professional Paper 40 [D. Bottjer/C. Powers/C. Jamet

You can view the paper I think at this URL--may need to download a special viewer from the site. http://pubs.er.usgs.gov/usgspubs/pp/pp40

I didnt look at it but it may give you some leads on the ammonites and locations.

The Paleobiology Db also mentions Brock, California...see this website for faunal info.

http://paleodb.org/cgi-bin/bridge.pl?action=basicCollectionSearch&collection_no=33324

Here's a search site at UC Berkeley. If you search for triassic in California...you'll find hits for microfossils/invertebrates from Brock Creek. http://ucmpdb.berkeley.edu/

I would guess the vert material is in there somewhere as well and I would think there are references to all of pubs/documentation from these sites/collections somewhere....good luck digging...

I'd also do an internet pub search for the authors/collectors mentioned in the forest service info...like Munthe...if you havent already done so....

All for now, its past my bedtime...

Good luck, regards, Chris

[jsw]

Thanks for the reply and also for the links. They were very interesting. I believe that I know the general are where the Hosselkus limestone is. Unfortunately, it's in a very rugged and remote area. It will be interesting to do more research on the subject. And here I thought that there was nowhere around my house where fossils could be found! Maybe when the weather gets nicer I'll be able to take a couple exploratory trips out there. Thanks again.

- Josh

[andreas]

Thanks for the reply and also for the links. They were very interesting. I believe that I know the general are where the Hosselkus limestone is. Unfortunately, it's in a very rugged and remote area. It will be interesting to do more research on the subject. And here I thought that there was nowhere around my house where fossils could be found! Maybe when the weather gets nicer I'll be able to take a couple exploratory trips out there. Thanks again.

- Josh

Hi Josh!

I hope you do more research on the Hosselkus limestone in field, maybe you have good luck and find the fossil layers there. You can find ammonites there which look similar, in shape and form, like these on the added pictures. Fossil- and limestone colour is different.

I wish you good hunting luck!

Best regards from the heart of Europe

Andreas

[John]

I was wondering if anyone on here had any information about the Hosselkus Limestone formation of northern CA. From what I've been able to find online, the formation is from the Late Triassic and has yielded numerous fossils. However, most of the information online is from the early 1900's. Does anyone have or know where I could find more information? Thanks. I've included an excerpt from a Forest Service report about the area. Thanks.

Be very careful to be sure you know who owns the land you are collecting on in that area. A lot of it is federal land and it is now a serious felony to collect any sort of vertebrates on federal land.

John

[jsw]

Thanks for the warning. Unfortunately, a lot of that area is federal property. I had full intentions of getting out there just to look around this past week since I was on spring break. Unfortunately I got sick and really didn't get to do much of anything until yesterday. Is it just vertebrate fossils that people are prohibited from collecting onm federal land or is it invertebrates as well?

[faunafarm]

Josh,
Just joined the forum, a terrific resource for all things fossil! I am planning a little excursion to the Hosselkus Limestones later this month (Feb,2015). I have been fascinated with this area ever
since I went looking for geocaches in that area. A geocache was place on one of the limestone ridges, and an abundance of horn coral surrounded me! And to think...some of the earliest marine reptile fossils have been found in these limestones.

I hope to find the best way to get up onto Brock Mountain as well as Grey rock and devils rock. (a great map can be obtained from the California Geological Survey Menlo office at 650-688-6327, can purchase over the phone, around $12. Ask for the Redding Sheet).

Hobby fossil collecting is allowed on United States Forest Service property, so is nice to not worry about violating property rights!

Samwel Cave is in this area, fantastic paleontological and archaeological history to this cave.

Hope you have made it there!

Derle

[jpc]

Hobby fossil collecting is allowed on United States Forest Service property, so is nice to not worry about violating property rights!

Hobby collecting of those horn corals is fine, but the ichythosaur bones are off limits. No vert collecting on USFS land. Have fun and find good stuff. Josh's posts were three years old, I wonder if he is paying attention.

[Wrangellian]

Three years old? Try five!

[Auspex]

Hobby collecting of those horn corals is fine, but the ichythosaur bones are off limits. No vert collecting on USFS land. Have fun and find good stuff. Josh's posts were three years old, I wonder if he is paying attention.

Three years old? Try five!

It is still informative content for posterity

Remember that we enjoy 30,000 to 45,000 unique visitors a month, and it is quite likely that some will gain insight from the topic.

[faunafarm]

Thanks all! Knew it was an old post, but what the heck, when I saw the word "Hosselkus" I got all excited! Those limestones are almost in my back yard (well...2 hours away, but that counts as close). Been reading "Dinosaurs and other Mesozoic Reptiles of California" by Richard Hilton, and had fun accounts of the early collectors. I figured if I was lucky enough to find any reptile fossils I would hoot and holler, get some pics and coordinates and give Berkeley a call. Returned last Wed. from that area, returned with several neat specimens of coral. Will afford me ample time to ponder them. Apparently many types in this area! Being a rookie, will post some pics once I figure out the ropes of this forum!

[jpc]

Three years old? Try five!

My math skills are usually pretty good, so maybe I am living in the past... yeah, that's it.

[Wrangellian]

I just wish we could have gotten some update from Josh, Did he ever find the spot?

Would have been nice to see a pic of those horn corals etc. (eh, Derle?)

[faunafarm]

Here are a few pics of the coral. Only had a short time to collect some specimens that have tumbled down the slope. Planning on returning in the future and allowing myself ample time to
wander about on the hill. Next pics will include ruler,coin, rock hammer, small child, what ever to help give an idea on size of specimen. Hope I did not re-size too small. Also including 2 kmz files to show area. Hope it works! So much for the pics. Just found out not allowed to upload the kmz files.

[faunafarm]

Here is a snip of the area from a google earth image.

Edited February 17, 2015 by faunafarm

[Wrangellian]

Odd... I'm not sure what I'm looking at, aside from the last one which does look like a weathered coral. Some of the pics are kind of small/compressed so all I can see are some porous blobs of rock intermingled with solid limestone.. Are you sure they're coral or any kind of fossil? We need better pics and more opinions from others...

[andreas]

Hi,

First I,m not familar with this location at all. I personally have never been there. I know it only from literature. But I did a quick search and think that the historical locations there are in more southerrn direction. I was also told that one main historical location is now on the ground of lake Shasta.

Take a look at Smith 1927; and search for the locations there. You will find out where the Hosselkus limestone crops out and in which direction it strikes .

Corals can normaly be found in the upper part of the Hosselkus limestone. The Ammonoid layers are in the formation below the coral formation.

Good luck

Edited February 24, 2015 by andreas

[faunafarm]

Indeed, I am not sure what type of "encrustation" appears to have "grown" around the limestone. It does not bubble when in HCL, although I learned a new termwhile dissolving away some of the limestone...bituminous limestone. Lovely sulfurous smell. First noticed the smell when hitting the limestone with my hammer. I did find a possible fossil (or maybe a pseudofossil). I have circled the

possible fossil in the pics. Sorry again for the quality of the pics, really need a macro for the little stuff. Thanks Andreas for the reference to the geological paper, It seems there are a lot of fossil types

in the limestone ridge. Hard to get to the sites now, but apparently you could ride horses to the areas back in the late 1800's, early 1900's. Some private property and...dang, can't see the geology for the trees! I might have to get a little putt putt boat and go up the pit river arm of shasta lake to get nearer that ridge. Posting another google snip of the area and land marks. Wow, what a learning curve

and great fun learning about fossils and geology. really takes my mind of of working in the emergency department.

[Wrangellian]

Your camera should be good, if only you can get it to focus on the fossil rather than a different part of the rock!

[Plantguy]

Interesting to see this thread revived...Sure looks like you've got something there but hard to discern what without clearer pictures. Nice shot of the ridge in the earlier post!

Yep fossiling/geology is a great healthy escape from all kinds of other things! Have fun out there and be safe.

Regards, Chris

[andreas]

Hi faunafarm,

sent you a PM a few days ago. Maybe you didn't see it. My assumptions therein are right. Think I can locate now the closer area of one location of Smith 1927.

Edited March 1, 2015 by andreas

[faunafarm]

Howdy Andreas!

I thought I sent a reply, but I fear I sent it to some unknown parallel universe, oops! Here it is again "

I an very grateful for all the replies and tips! I am very anxious to return and spend more time in the limestones and see what I can see! The United States Forest Service has made that area

a Research Natural Area (RNA) and I have found a pdf of the technical paper explaining the importance of the area. And importantly some ideas on approaching the ridge with out a boat! And I will

hopefully find some specimens that will be easier to photograph. What a wonderful steep learning curve for me! Here is the link of the Devils Rock-Hosselkus Reasearch Natural Area".

My wife looked at one of the old pictures of the limestone ridge and asked "are you going up there???!". I told her I will be looking more on the south western slopes, not to fear! That ridge is quite the knife edge! There is an old jeep trail called low pass that at one time went through a pass

11devils_rock_hosselkus_er.pdf

[FossilDAWG]

Do anyone know if the designation of an area as a Research Natural Area impacts the legality of collecting invertebrate fossils?

Don

[faunafarm]

I could not find info on the legality of fossil collecting in research natural areas either. So I am relying on the general rules for fossil collecting in the National Forestshttp://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r3/recreation/regulations/?cid=fsbdev3_022262. On one occasion when I visited the Shasta-Trinity Forest Service Office to obtain the key to Samwel Cave (one of the limestone caves in the area famous for the many paleo and archeo treasures found there), I asked about the Devils rock-Hosselkus Research Natural Area. Apparently she had never heard such a thing! USFS best kept secret!

I feel good about collecting a few invertebrate fossils...and if I get really really lucky and find a vertebrate fossil, lots of hooting and hollering (in a subdued voice) and many pics!

P.S. in the future I will learn to nicely link to other sites. my html skills very rusty.

Derle