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Brandy Cole

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Found a mineralized skull fragment with broken horn bases in southeast Texas.  Mostly pleistocene fossils here.

 

The horns seem fairly close-set, which I wouldn't expect with bison.  But they're fairly wide and thick, so I was leaning away from things like deer or antelope.

 

Can anyone point me in the right direction?

 

Thanks.

 

--Brandy

 

 

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23 hours ago, Rockwood said:

Atlas vert ?

 

I don't think so. I think it's too large to be a vert for anything other than a proboscidean.

 

It's hard to convey in the picture, but it looks like the top, thick portion of a skull with two bases where horns have been broken off. The 'horn' bases look asymmetrical, so I would also think that weighs against a vert. 

 

But since they're not pointing out of the side of the head the way I would expect bos or bison, I'm not sure what else they may be.  Not sure if I'm orienting it correctly for the pictures either, but I tried to get a couple more shots of the projections.

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Brandy Cole said:

I don't think so.

This does illustrate the distinction well. That's an antler/horn, base all right.

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I’m getting more of a proboscidean vertebra vibe also. Can you post more pics from different angles, especially flat sides

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50 minutes ago, garyc said:

I’m getting more of a proboscidean vertebra vibe also. Can you post more pics from different angles, especially flat sides

 

22 hours ago, Brandy Cole said:

I think it's too large to be a vert for anything other than a proboscidean.

 

Here is a probiscidean axis vertebra (9 - 10 inches wide).

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Oh wow.  If it turns out to be mammoth/mastodon, then I've definitely found the secret to finding cool stuff... I just have to utterly misidentify it first. :-)

 

Here are a couple of other shots I took the other day right after I cleaned it.  I'll have to dig it out of the box later for good views of the sides.

 

 

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So I'm not positive what other views may help, but I am seeing similarity to this older post.

If I'm orienting it the same way, then I'm showing...

1) front face of vert

2) rear face of vert

3) side view of 1 side

4) side view of other side

 

Hopefully that helps!

 

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I think you can be relatively certain you have about one third of a probiscidean vertebra centrum.  

 

Having fun, yet?  :D

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1 hour ago, JohnJ said:

I think you can be relatively certain you have about one third of a probiscidean vertebra centrum.  

 

Having fun, yet?  :D

 

Haha, definitely!  Thank you!  I think this makes getting stuck knee deep in the mud at dusk without a good flashlight worth it in hindsight. :)

 

The idea that this could be a partial vert would never have crossed my mind due to the size.  Thanks @Rockwood for thinking of it.

 

If it's ok to piggy back my own post, I'm also trying to ID another vertebra.  I've been leaning toward large mammal caudal vertebra, but I'm having a hard time pinning down species.   A few photos of mastodon actually look similar, but I'm having trouble finding good comparison and size examples to see if that's a reasonable vs outlandish possibility.  Nothing online seems to match precisely, and I'm traveling, away from my Olsen mammoth/mastodon book for a few days.

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I'm leaning toward sloth on that one too.

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Grüße,

Daniel A. Wöhr aus Südtexas

"To the motivated go the spoils."

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Or glyptodon maybe? This resembles a few for sale, but it's always hard for me to tell if those have been correctly identified, and they often don't reference scale.

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8 hours ago, Brandy Cole said:

Or glyptodon maybe? This resembles a few for sale, but it's always hard for me to tell if those have been correctly identified, and they often don't reference scale.

 

I think that you're right! And a really nice one!

glyptodon tail ver.gif

glyptotherium tail E.jpg

Edited by fossilus
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I considered glyptodon, but couldn't make out the process attachment scars on the ventral side.

 

FOR COMPARISON

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6 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

I considered glyptodon, but couldn't make out the process attachment scars on the ventral side.

 

FOR COMPARISON

I see what you're talking about.

 

Unfortunately, I didn't take a picture of the ventral side and don't have the specimen with me here.

 

But here are a couple of other pics I took at home that may show a little more detail.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Brandy Cole said:

and they often don't reference scale.

 

I think your suspicion about it being glyptodont is supported by the features.  The size falls within recorded measurements, too.  You have another awesome find!

 

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5 hours ago, JohnJ said:

 

I think your suspicion about it being glyptodont is supported by the features.  The size falls within recorded measurements, too.  You have another awesome find!

 

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@JohnJ. Thank you so much for sharing this!

 

Unfortunately, I may need a little help deciphering it.   

 

So as I understand it, if I'm looking at centrum size, for example, then they're using axes b and d for the transverse diameter measurement of the anterior and posterior centrum respectively and then listing out measurements of different specimens they've studied.  And then the different tables show the measurements for specimens within different types of glyptodonts studied.

 

So if my anterior and posterior centrum measurements are roughly 3.5 inches, that would put them around 88.6 mm and more consistent with measurements in table 67, glyptotherium arizonae.  Would that be right?  Or am I missing something?

 

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer this stuff.  I really appreciate the chance to learn.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Brandy Cole said:

So if my anterior and posterior centrum measurements are roughly 3.5 inches, that would put them around 88.6 mm and more consistent with measurements in table 67, glyptotherium arizonae.  Would that be right?  Or am I missing something?

 

Brandy, 

 

That is how I interpret the data, too.  The caveat to keep in mind is that the data only represents two individuals of G. texanum and one of G. arizonae.  Larger examples of G. texanum may or may not have been found...I just don't know.  The large size of your vertebra is what initially steered me away from an ID of Glyptodont until I found this data.

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On 9/22/2021 at 7:54 PM, JohnJ said:

 

Brandy, 

 

That is how I interpret the data, too.  The caveat to keep in mind is that the data only represents two individuals of G. texanum and one of G. arizonae.  Larger examples of G. texanum may or may not have been found...I just don't know.  The large size of your vertebra is what initially steered me away from an ID of Glyptodont until I found this data.

 

Ok, I made it home and got a few pictures of the ventral side of the vertebra. I'm not sure what the process attachment scars should look like, but there do seem to be two small lumps there just beneath the larger face.

 

 

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Nice photos, @Brandy Cole.  I think Glyptotherium is a reasonable ID.  You have some big animals residing in your home.  :D

 

@digit might be able to show your images to his Florida paleontologist resources.  

The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 9/22/2021 at 12:37 AM, JohnJ said:

@Brandy Cole that is a beautiful vertebra.  Since you are having such great fossil success, I'm wondering if this a big sloth caudal vertebra?

 

@fossilus @Harry Pristis @PrehistoricFlorida @Uncle Siphuncle

 

It's sloth. Paramylodon harlani

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1 hour ago, PrehistoricFlorida said:

 

It's sloth. Paramylodon harlani

 

Thank you! Are there specific characteristics that help to distinguish sloth caudals from glyptotherium?

 

--Brandy

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