Hell Creek Raptor Tooth

[Dino Dad 81]

Hi all,

 

This small 5/32" tooth came from Powder River, Hell Creek, Montana. The thought was that it's Saurornitholestes, but it comes off to me as having a awfully troodontid ind. look, no? It looks very curved for Saurornitholestes. The distal denticles seem like a big fit for a Saurornitholestes tooth (but maybe the tininess of it is throwing off my sense of scale) and, while the distal denticles look like they're significantly worn, it looks a little to me like they point upward throughout the CH (as opposed to only the denticles towards the tip pointing upward). I would think the attribute that most makes troodontid ind. questionable is the high density of the mesial denticles . But I thought I'd heard (even if just in TFF wisedom) that there's significant variability in the mesial denticles of troodontid from this area--even to the point of there being none, potentially (?).

 

What do you think?

 

Thanks!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Dino Dad 81

[Troodon]

Changed my mind from my PM might be a Troodontid.  Checkout "N" in the illustration from Dinosaur Systematic which has finer serrations on both edges.

[Runner64]

I agree troodontid. Also, Saurorniothelestes isn’t described from Hell Creek Formation, only Acheroraptor.

[Dino Dad 81]

Thanks, @Troodon and @Runner64!

Troodon, I took the additional pictures yesterday to better examine the denticles, but didn't want to pester you even more while traveling. Thanks for coming through anyway.

 

The next thing that jumped out at me is that it looks more Judith River / Formosus than Hell Creek, based on what little HC material I have, such as this:

 

Would you agree that the one I posted previously has more of a Judith River / Formosus appearance?

 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Dino Dad 81

[Runner64]

2 hours ago, Dino Dad 81 said:

 

Would you agree that the one I posted previously has more of a Judith River / Formosus appearance?

 

I don't think it is possible to tell a difference between formations just by looking at the color.  They both produce fossils from light brown, dark brown, gray, and sometimes black.  If the location you were given is Powder River, I believe that area is Hell Creek Formation.

[Dino Dad 81]

2 hours ago, Runner64 said:

I don't think it is possible to tell a difference between formations just by looking at the color.  They both produce fossils from light brown, dark brown, gray, and sometimes black.  If the location you were given is Powder River, I believe that area is Hell Creek Formation.

@Runner64 I was thinking more in terms of how big the distal denticles get and the amount of general curvature of the tooth. But, there too, the tiny size of it and the wear on the denticles may be causing me an optical illusion. That hell creek example (the 2nd tooth I posted) just looks as if it doesn't have the same kind of thickness at the base of each denticle. I have 3 hell creek troodontid teeth and they all look the same (like the 2nd tooth)--even down to having no/barely any noticeable mesial denticles (and no wear that would explain it). But, I suppose even the color highlights on the tip and distal denticles of the original tooth I posted also contributed to me the more JR look I thought I saw.

 

HC troodontid look more like E/F/G to me, whereas I thought the 1st tooth I posted bears resemblance to A or C (but with significant wear--even to the point of possibly hiding bigger denticles lower down on the mesial side):

 

In terms of location, I bought several teeth from the same seller when I got the original tooth posted here--some from HC and the others from JR--and he said it's possible one could belong to the other formation and was misplaced.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Dino Dad 81

[Troodon]

Locality, locality and locality is key in identification of teeth.   Why getting a good provenance is paramount.  Its very difficult to look at most North America teeth and put a formation next to them.

 

Most standard Troodontid teeth  from the HC are indistinguishable from those of older deposits.  I can lay my JR, TM, HC and L formation teeth next to one another and other than color you cannot seen any variation.   There are some morphological variation in  Troodontid teeth but I believe they exist in all deposits.   

[Dino Dad 81]

Thanks so much @Runner64 and @Troodon. I get teeth like this because I enjoy this investigation and learning process