Spider in Amber (Columbian)

[Sofyar]

Hey guys!

I found this nice looking Columbian Amber with a lot of inclusions and a big Spider, and was wondering what you think about it. Let me know what you think!

[vermiculosis]

Spider is very nice + syninclusions too.

In general Colombian young fossilised resin is called Copal, not amber.

Cheers from amber cave

 

[Sofyar]

3 hours ago, vermiculosis said:

Spider is very nice + syninclusions too.

In general Colombian young fossilised resin is called Copal, not amber.

Cheers from amber cave

 

Actually it's not Copal! 

[Crusty_Crab]

The spider is nice, but did you notice the extremely long legs of the crane fly? Its excessive even for the normally spindly legged crane flies. The first pair of legs is more than 5 times the length of the body!? The cervix (neck) segment seems elongated as well. Thats a strange looking cranefly. Have you showed it to a cranefly expert?

[daves64]

7 hours ago, vermiculosis said:

Cheers from amber cave

Now that is a cave I'd love to visit.. And by visit, I don't mean raid.... well... maybe.. 

[Yoda]

When spiders and flies die, the legs often curl up underneath the thorax.

 

I think this piece would require further tests to make sure it is genuine 

[vermiculosis]

4 hours ago, Sofyar said:

Actually it's not Copal! 

 One of the many articles about copal vs amber :

The word kopal comes from the word copalli, which in Nahuatl means 'incense'. This fragrant stone has fascinated people with its resinous smell and unusual appearance since the dawn of time. Nowadays, it is often compared with Baltic amber, due to its similar appearance, despite its different properties. Are these resins more divided, or do they have more in common than they seem?

Natural resins are divided by age: older fossil (e.g. Baltic amber) and younger called subfossil (e.g. Colombian copal). The mines are between 10,000 and 1 million years old, and according to some researchers up to 5 million years ^[1].

The exact name of the copal usually comes from the place of extraction or from the name of its parent tree. The most popular copal is resin from Colombia, which is characterized by a yellow-greenish color and high transparency. Its native tree are tropical deciduous trees Leguminosae (similar in appearance to modern acacia).  

Resin from Colombia is collected from the Earth's surface or extracted at small depths. The largest deposits are located in the Andes in the departments of Boyaca and Santander.

The Colombian copal is successfully used in jewelry and sculpture. However, due to its fragility, it undergoes a thermal process in an autoclave to increase its hardness (and thus enable polishing) and age the color of the resin. There is also varnishing of the resin surface to increase its resistance to mechanical damage and give it a better gloss ^[3].

Baltic amber is sometimes replaced with copal from Colombia. There is nothing wrong with it until the person concerned is aware of it. The Colombian copal has the unfair opinion of being an imitation of amber, although it is a valuable and unique stone in itself. Both of these resins are of natural origin and emit a beautiful resinous smell when heated.

What distinguishes Colombian copal from Baltic Amber?

• Age - the copal is up to 5 million years old, and Baltic amber about 40 million;
• Stem tree - resin from Colombia comes from deciduous trees, and Baltic amber from conifers
• Plasticizing and melting temperature - much lower in the case of Colombian copal;
• Hardness - the "Baltic" is much harder, it does not need curing in an autoclave to be used in jewelry;
• Reaction to acetone - copal is covered with a sticky layer, Baltic amber does not react;
• Succinic acid - in copal 0-3%, in Baltic amber from 3-8%.
  
  Copal is copal, amber is amber.

[vermiculosis]

2 hours ago, daves64 said:

Now that is a cave I'd love to visit.. And by visit, I don't mean raid.... well... maybe.. 

Lol, well this is just my passion of life so yes - this is amber cave - but it do not look like museum my friend
Everywhere is amber mess, amber dust ( grinder is here ) , boxes with ambers, amber chaos in general but.... i love this room  

Cheers from the cave !

[Sofyar]

3 hours ago, vermiculosis said:

 One of the many articles about copal vs amber :

The word kopal comes from the word copalli, which in Nahuatl means 'incense'. This fragrant stone has fascinated people with its resinous smell and unusual appearance since the dawn of time. Nowadays, it is often compared with Baltic amber, due to its similar appearance, despite its different properties. Are these resins more divided, or do they have more in common than they seem?

Natural resins are divided by age: older fossil (e.g. Baltic amber) and younger called subfossil (e.g. Colombian copal). The mines are between 10,000 and 1 million years old, and according to some researchers up to 5 million years ^[1].

The exact name of the copal usually comes from the place of extraction or from the name of its parent tree. The most popular copal is resin from Colombia, which is characterized by a yellow-greenish color and high transparency. Its native tree are tropical deciduous trees Leguminosae (similar in appearance to modern acacia).  

Resin from Colombia is collected from the Earth's surface or extracted at small depths. The largest deposits are located in the Andes in the departments of Boyaca and Santander.

The Colombian copal is successfully used in jewelry and sculpture. However, due to its fragility, it undergoes a thermal process in an autoclave to increase its hardness (and thus enable polishing) and age the color of the resin. There is also varnishing of the resin surface to increase its resistance to mechanical damage and give it a better gloss ^[3].

Baltic amber is sometimes replaced with copal from Colombia. There is nothing wrong with it until the person concerned is aware of it. The Colombian copal has the unfair opinion of being an imitation of amber, although it is a valuable and unique stone in itself. Both of these resins are of natural origin and emit a beautiful resinous smell when heated.

What distinguishes Colombian copal from Baltic Amber?

• Age - the copal is up to 5 million years old, and Baltic amber about 40 million;
• Stem tree - resin from Colombia comes from deciduous trees, and Baltic amber from conifers
• Plasticizing and melting temperature - much lower in the case of Colombian copal;
• Hardness - the "Baltic" is much harder, it does not need curing in an autoclave to be used in jewelry;
• Reaction to acetone - copal is covered with a sticky layer, Baltic amber does not react;
• Succinic acid - in copal 0-3%, in Baltic amber from 3-8%.
  
  Copal is copal, amber is amber.

I'll tell you what the seller wrote it's from the Paleocene (60mya) from the Cerrejon Coal mines, and that "This amber is much harder than the copal for which Colombia is known"

[Sofyar]

1 hour ago, vermiculosis said:

Lol, well this is just my passion of life so yes - this is amber cave - but it do not look like museum my friend
Everywhere is amber mess, amber dust ( grinder is here ) , boxes with ambers, amber chaos in general but.... i love this room  

Cheers from the cave !

Well when you get to find that fantastic inclusion all that dust must be worth it!

[Crusty_Crab]

Biodiversity of fossils in Amber from the major world deposits edited by David Penney, Siri Scientific Press, 2010 is pretty comprehensive in listing all of the major amber deposits with inclusions. The Cerrejon mines are not listed, nor are any localities from Columbia, although it does discuss copal from Columbia. I could not find any papers about amber from that locality as well. Does anyone know of any publications about amber from that locality? 

[Top Trilo]

When I searched "Cerrejon Coal mines amber" the only sites that came up were commercial dealers. Even wikipedia's page for Cerrejon did not mention amber or copal once.

[Sofyar]

8 hours ago, Crusty_Crab said:

Biodiversity of fossils in Amber from the major world deposits edited by David Penney, Siri Scientific Press, 2010 is pretty comprehensive in listing all of the major amber deposits with inclusions. The Cerrejon mines are not listed, nor are any localities from Columbia, although it does discuss copal from Columbia. I could not find any papers about amber from that locality as well. Does anyone know of any publications about amber from that locality? 

Sorry it's not FROM the mines it's from a source located south of the mines. Also it's date to the Paleocene so much older than other Copal in Columbia, so should it even be labeled as such or as Amber?

[Randyw]

Unfortunatly there are no amber sites in columbia. The oldest resin extracted there is 5 million years old. With most deposits being less then 10,000 years old.These pieces are often autoclaved tomake them hard enough to polish. So it should be listed as copal

from ambermuseum.eu

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Randyw

[Sofyar]

16 minutes ago, Randyw said:

Unfortunatly there are no amber sites in columbia. The oldest resin extracted there is 5 million years old. With most deposits being less then 10,000 years old.These pieces are often autoclaved tomake them hard enough to polish. 

from ambermuseum.eu

 

Interesting. The seller is a well known one and claims that the Amber is Paleocene aged which is even older than Baltic Amber. 

[FranzBernhard]

Now this discussion becomes really interesting! One of the things why I  TFF!

What type of coal is mined in that Cerrejon mines?

Amber vs. Copal. Well, age, but don´t forget diagenetic history.

Franz Bernhard

[daves64]

19 hours ago, vermiculosis said:

 boxes with ambers

Yeah.. not a good place for me to visit. I'd be too tempted to go mining in those boxes.  I've only got about a half dozen pieces of Baltic amber, a couple of which have inclusions, but I think my pockets would be crying out for me to fill them. 

[Randyw]

47 minutes ago, daves64 said:

but I think my pockets would be crying out for me to fill them. 

The same here! Ive got a few hundred pieces of amber of various ages and i still want more!

[daves64]

32 minutes ago, Randyw said:

The same here! Ive got a few hundred pieces of amber of various ages and i still want more!

I've got at least 2 pounds of Indonesian amber (maybe 3) & just under 50 grams of Burmese amber to go along with my 6 pieces of Baltic. Not enough at all... especially the Burmite & Baltic. *sigh*

[vermiculosis]

23 hours ago, daves64 said:

I've got at least 2 pounds of Indonesian amber (maybe 3) & just under 50 grams of Burmese amber to go along with my 6 pieces of Baltic. Not enough at all... especially the Burmite & Baltic. *sigh*

Lol - never too much amber for me.
Becouse i am from Poland, it is kind of my haritage. But i love them so much - i am going at the Baltic Sea tomorrow for amber trip. Bad winds now - but we never know, they can change in any day. 
Amber is magical, mysterious and addicting.

In the past i didn't ever think that in future i can be researcher of "new" inclusions from amber. This is now my reality.

I Will got soon 17 "bugs" described with my name from Baltic amber and 18th it will be first Burmite - sensational find for science ( so far it is secret ).

Not showing up - i just want to say - that with passion and determination, we can do amazing things !

Cheers from amber cave !

Artur

 

[Yoda]

On 10/13/2021 at 6:10 PM, Randyw said:

The same here! Ive got a few hundred pieces of amber of various ages and i still want more!

 

I have quite a few pieces of Burmite

Collecting Amber is very addictive 

[Barrelcactusaddict]

That does indeed appear to be a member of the Tipulidae; some genera do have somewhat elongate necks; its wings are well-preserved, and their marking and venation upon closer study would certainly aid in identification as to the genus. There are also representatives of Coleoptera and Isoptera in your specimen, the latter of which does appear to have some slight decomposition and leeching (which is also seen around the spider's abdomen); this "leeching" is caused by body fluids reacting (oxidation) with the resin, which discolors it. This is certainly a specimen of copal, as others have established; other possible distinguishing characteristics of copal are: unusual clarity, recent/modern species inclusions, and near-perfect preservation of biological inclusions. 

 

One feature of copal that has not been mentioned, is that it is only slightly (if not at all) reactive under SW/LW UV light; some UV reactivity would likely indicate a relatively older age for the copal. The reason behind UV reactivity in amber is commonly understood to be due to the presence of various aromatic and unsaturated hydrocarbons, which are formed under various combined processes during deposition (diagenesis); a number of factors can influence the formation of these compounds (deposition in lacustrine environment, heat, oxic and dysoxic environments, etc.). Some specimens have lower concentrations of these compounds than others, which may also be attributed to some of these several factors (Dominican blue amber vs. standard Dominican). Research into all these processes is continually ongoing, and is not entirely understood.

 

I hope this has been of some help!

 

-Kaegen