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AJ the Tyrant

Hey! I’m thinking about buying this possible Eocarcharia dinops tooth. I want to make sure that it is completely authentic and correctly identified. It does say it is from the Elrhaz formation in Gadoufaoua, Niger, but I just want confirmation (if possible because identifying theropods from Niger can be quite difficult) that this indeed an E. dinops tooth.

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AJ the Tyrant

I’m thinking about purchasing this tooth, but I will not do so if it turns out to be incorrectly identified or not completely authentic. It seems to be authentic (I don’t see any areas of suspicion), but I don’t know if it has been correctly identified. I don’t have much experience with theropods from Niger. The tooth is labeled as an Eocarcharia dinops. Everything about the location seems to be correct. They said it’s from Gadoufaoua, Ténéré Desert, Niger. The colors also seem to match those of the Elrhaz formation which the seller said it is from. I’m wondering if this identification is correct (if possible because identifying theropod teeth from Niger is quite difficult). The tooth also has little to no serrations which does not help the situation.

 

(I already posted this on Thursday of last week, but I’m doing so again because it received no replies; I don’t think that breaks any rules on TFF)

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57 minutes ago, AJ the Tyrant said:

(I already posted this on Thursday of last week, but I’m doing so again because it received no replies; I don’t think that breaks any rules on TFF)

Topics merged.  AJ, it is always recommended that discussion of the same item occurs in a single topic.  There is less chance of confusion or duplicate commentary.  ;)

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Not a big expert or have scientific literature etched into my brain, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

I believe this is a premax tooth? The very worn polished look is typical of Elrhaz preservation, and Eocarcharia is the only theropod currently described that would fit. Provenance is also right for Elrhaz fm., that said, you still have to be a bit cautious since a lot of stuff comes from Niger without provenance and it's easy to slap on that Gadoufaoua onto it. But this one is probably fine based on aforementioned preservation.

 

I don't know how future proof the tooth is in the off chance a 2nd Carcharodontosaurid, or another large theropod is described.

 

Based on the photos, the distal serrations might still be good enough to get a count with a USB scope, can't really say anything about the mesial since there's no closeup view. But I've had worse serrations on teeth and it was still possible to count, with some difficulty of course.

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Sorry missed your first post.  I put this topic together to help identify Niger teeth but unfortunately not much is published on these teeth.    The information provided is for lateral teeth on Eocharcharia, yours is an anterior tooth and there is nothing published on that position.   Like Kikokuryu indicated not much else would fit this tooth so if the provenance provided is accurate, and not Echkar or Jurassic, not sure it can be anything else given just the size.   The distal serrations do look awfully fine, not sure what to say about that, guessing they should be around 3/mm.  Biggest tooth I've seen from there.

 

 

Hendrickx identified this tooth from the Kem Kem as a pre-max from a Carchardontosaurid.

It had the features listed.  I noted in red the features of your tooth but other than the mesial carina I don't think you can say much other than its an anterior tooth.  The last image shows a strongly displaced distal carina unlike your tooth which is key.

  • Mesial carina ends mid-crown and is centrally placed.   Fits your tooth
  • No marginal undulations present   Fits your tooth
  • No transverse undulations present  Difficult to say from Photos
  • No longitudinal ridges present  Difficult to say from Photos
  • Weak short interdental sulci on one side of distal denticles at mid-row  Difficult to say
  • Strongly displaced distal carina   Yours is not its very straight 
  • Braided enamel texture   Cannot Determine

IMG_20190522_161743261.jpg.4dbdac8ceb08cb1dd3c1570a4bf918aa.jpg.fb4333c631fb1be75586e42ed794562d.thumb.jpg.578c2d057d3c01df922de4ea28f33894.jpg

IMG_20190522_161326350.jpg.e186cc474137db5e11d999baf68015ac.thumb.jpg.bd2f05fe9311dad88400ce949b18c6df.jpg.c2c9f5a01034a914cec87b7e10482e9f.jpgIMG_20190522_161435818.jpg.6284ef43115f3cfba1f1e8fee3727031.thumb.jpg.e49c2bc4a0532885bbb79a77ce38301a.jpg.a193adebdfafac11d24ea9173a02d183.jpg

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Here's some photos of my Eocarcharia dinops fragment...

Location: Gadoufaoua, Téneré Desert, Niger.
Geological Formation:  Elrhaz Fm

Screenshot_20211019-084744_eBay.jpg

Screenshot_20211019-084728_eBay.jpg

Screenshot_20211019-084549_Gallery.jpg

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4 hours ago, lesofprimus said:

Here's some photos of my Eocarcharia dinops fragment...

Location: Gadoufaoua, Téneré Desert, Niger.
Geological Formation:  Elrhaz Fm

Screenshot_20211019-084744_eBay.jpg

Screenshot_20211019-084728_eBay.jpg

Screenshot_20211019-084549_Gallery.jpg

I ask because I know nothing about dino teeth. Is it possible to determine the genus and species of such a fragment of tooth? @Troodon

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AJ the Tyrant
10 hours ago, Troodon said:

Sorry missed your first post.  I put this topic together to help identify Niger teeth but unfortunately not much is published on these teeth.    The information provided is for lateral teeth on Eocharcharia, yours is an anterior tooth and there is nothing published on that position.   Like Kikokuryu indicated not much else would fit this tooth so if the provenance provided is accurate, and not Echkar or Jurassic, not sure it can be anything else given just the size.   The distal serrations do look awfully fine, not sure what to say about that, guessing they should be around 3/mm.  Biggest tooth I've seen from there.

 

 

Hendrickx identified this tooth from the Kem Kem as a pre-max from a Carchardontosaurid.

It had the features listed.  I noted in red the features of your tooth but other than the mesial carina I don't think you can say much other than its an anterior tooth.  The last image shows a strongly displaced distal carina unlike your tooth which is key.

  • Mesial carina ends mid-crown and is centrally placed.   Fits your tooth
  • No marginal undulations present   Fits your tooth
  • No transverse undulations present  Difficult to say from Photos
  • No longitudinal ridges present  Difficult to say from Photos
  • Weak short interdental sulci on one side of distal denticles at mid-row  Difficult to say
  • Strongly displaced distal carina   Yours is not its very straight 
  • Braided enamel texture   Cannot Determine

IMG_20190522_161743261.jpg.4dbdac8ceb08cb1dd3c1570a4bf918aa.jpg.fb4333c631fb1be75586e42ed794562d.thumb.jpg.578c2d057d3c01df922de4ea28f33894.jpg

IMG_20190522_161326350.jpg.e186cc474137db5e11d999baf68015ac.thumb.jpg.bd2f05fe9311dad88400ce949b18c6df.jpg.c2c9f5a01034a914cec87b7e10482e9f.jpgIMG_20190522_161435818.jpg.6284ef43115f3cfba1f1e8fee3727031.thumb.jpg.e49c2bc4a0532885bbb79a77ce38301a.jpg.a193adebdfafac11d24ea9173a02d183.jpg

IMG_20190522_161647520.jpg.bdf45cb7cabc2d81f93e33f04e0d2eb0.thumb.jpg.d76f126797b5b367b1fee14e485b1abf.jpg.7dd8cf8336342e50c3ea19422c32a303.jpg

 

Thank you so much for the help. Much appreciated! I think the replies to this post have made me want to purchase the tooth even more.

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AJ the Tyrant
16 hours ago, Kikokuryu said:

Not a big expert or have scientific literature etched into my brain, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

 

I believe this is a premax tooth? The very worn polished look is typical of Elrhaz preservation, and Eocarcharia is the only theropod currently described that would fit. Provenance is also right for Elrhaz fm., that said, you still have to be a bit cautious since a lot of stuff comes from Niger without provenance and it's easy to slap on that Gadoufaoua onto it. But this one is probably fine based on aforementioned preservation.

 

I don't know how future proof the tooth is in the off chance a 2nd Carcharodontosaurid, or another large theropod is described.

 

Based on the photos, the distal serrations might still be good enough to get a count with a USB scope, can't really say anything about the mesial since there's no closeup view. But I've had worse serrations on teeth and it was still possible to count, with some difficulty of course.

Thank you, dude! This is a really helpful reply. I’m definitely going to get that tooth now.

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26 minutes ago, Kiros said:

I ask because I know nothing about dino teeth. Is it possible to determine the genus and species of such a fragment of tooth? @Troodon

 

Sometimes you can, others no it all depends on what characteristics are visible but its much harder and much more problematic.   Eocarcharia is a Carcharodontosaurid so it should have some features that reflect that family like, serration density, wrinkles, blood grooves etc.   The other item that needs to be considered is that are there other dinosaurs that it could fit both in size and shape.   Material from the Elrhaz Formation is poorly known and a few species have been described as I show in the above Topic on Niger.    However identification down to a species level can be risky because we do not know if there are additional Carcharodontosaurids that have yet to be described like in the KK Group there are two.   I doubt any Paleontologist would ID it lower that a family level but as collectors we do take more liberties because we MUST have a species name, I say that sarcastically.     

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12 hours ago, Troodon said:

 

Sometimes you can, others no it all depends on what characteristics are visible but its much harder and much more problematic.   Eocarcharia is a Carcharodontosaurid so it should have some features that reflect that family like, serration density, wrinkles, blood grooves etc.   The other item that needs to be considered is that are there other dinosaurs that it could fit both in size and shape.   Material from the Elrhaz Formation is poorly known and a few species have been described as I show in the above Topic on Niger.    However identification down to a species level can be risky because we do not know if there are additional Carcharodontosaurids that have yet to be described like in the KK Group there are two.   I doubt any Paleontologist would ID it lower that a family level but as collectors we do take more liberties because we MUST have a species name, I say that sarcastically.     

Thank you very much! such a exhaustive answer. Everyday on this forum I learn something 

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