Tiny Blue Llama Cap

[Shellseeker]

So I have a tooth that I both wanted to share and provoke some discussion and ask some questions.

I believe it to be an enamel Cap ... roots never formed. I suppose that is the 1st question. Llamas need teeth as soon as they are born, so the animal forming this tooth died before birth.  Is that a reasonable speculation?

 

I can not detect any crenulations (not sure that they occur on baby teeth) so is this likely Hemiauchenia ?  I will attempt to find reading material on how often replaced/how may sets of teeth Llamas have.  I will see Richard Hulbert on Thursday and will ask him. This one could be a lower right m1.  What do you think?

 

These are normally black, but when I shine a flashlight on them, they seem to reflect "blue". curious. 

 

An opportunity to tell me about your baby Llama tooth finds. .

 

 

 

[minnbuckeye]

I am thinking, llamas have deciduous teeth (unrooted baby teeth) that with age are replaced by permanent teeth. So a deciduous tooth?????

[Harry Pristis]

Oh, my.  Why do you think this is a camelid?  Camelids have selenodont teeth, and this doesn't look like a selenodont tooth.  Llamas have rooted deciduous teeth - three deciduous premolars -- up until they are replaced by permanent teeth.

 

I did puzzle over this tooth.  I finally decided that the tooth resembles Parahippus more than anything else I could think of.  It would be a rare find in the Peace River, if that's where you found it . . . Certainly not Pleistocene in that case.  It seems very small for a chalicothere, but who knows!  Hulbert knows.  Let us know what he says.

 

[Shellseeker]

10 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

Oh, my.  Why do you think this is a camelid?  Camelids have selenodont teeth, and this doesn't look like a selenodont tooth.  Llamas have rooted deciduous teeth - three deciduous premolars -- up until they are replaced by permanent teeth.

 

I did puzzle over this tooth.  I finally decided that the tooth resembles Parahippus more than anything else I could think of.  It would be a rare find in the Peace River, if that's where you found it . . . Certainly not Pleistocene in that case.  It seems very small for a chalicothere, but who knows!  Hulbert knows.  Let us know what he says.

 

Harry,

The limits of my fossil knowledge is heavily limited to Florida,  and even then to my specific hunting area, meaning Southwest Florida.  When ever I find something new,  I try to relate it to something I have seen previously.. In this case Llama and Parahippus share crescent shaped forms when looking down on the chewing surface. Certainly not Pleistocene.  I'll recognize the next one I find.

As you might imagine , due to its age, I have not previously found , seen, or handled Parahippus , especially a lower tooth which this seems to be. You and I had a great discussion about 22 months ago because I had found my 1st merychippine-grade horse tooth, which was an upper tooth.

Some times I blur the location descriptions of finds using "Peace River" as a description for the Peace River Watershed. That was the case 22 months ago. However, this find came out of the Peace River,  within a mile of the merychippine-grade tooth. It is indeed a rare find.. It took 13 years !!!

 

It is a cap, and was laying chewing side down when I first saw it.  I thought it would be a small tapir tooth. In answer to @minnbuckeye 's question,  yes a deciduous tooth.

I had to look up chalicothere. I do not think I will be finding one of those.

 

Richard gives a presentation Thursday at FCOLC (Fossil Club of Lee County) for a discussion of Peace River Paleo Project (PRiPP), getting local fossil hunters engaged in trying to fill out the fauna maps for various (north to south) sections of the Peace River. He will come and look at my collection, such that it is...

I am pleased that you have help me identify both this fossil and the Bison Scaphoid.  I may seem more knowledgeable than I actually am.

[Harry Pristis]

We are each of us students, Jack.

 

I don't think this is necessarily a deciduous tooth.  It could be an unerupted permanent tooth.  I can see that the enamel is laid down, and the root is developing.

 

You have not posted a view of the lingual side of the tooth, a view that's important to an ID.

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Harry Pristis said:

You have not posted a view of the lingual side of the tooth, a view that's important to an ID.

A couple of angles, harry

[PrehistoricFlorida]

1 hour ago, Harry Pristis said:

We are each of us students, Jack.

 

I don't think this is necessarily a deciduous tooth.  It could be an unerupted permanent tooth.  I can see that the enamel is laid down, and the root is developing.

 

You have not posted a view of the lingual side of the tooth, a view that's important to an ID.

 

Definitely a Perissodactyl tooth. Appears unerupted. I would not disagree with Parahippus or another of the three-toed horses. 

[Shellseeker]

46 minutes ago, PrehistoricFlorida said:

 

Definitely a Perissodactyl tooth. Appears unerupted. I would not disagree with Parahippus or another of the three-toed horses. 

Good to see you posting, Nate.  I hope life is treating you well.

[Shellseeker]

6 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

We are each of us students, Jack.

 

I don't think this is necessarily a deciduous tooth.  It could be an unerupted permanent tooth.  I can see that the enamel is laid down, and the root is developing.

 

You have not posted a view of the lingual side of the tooth, a view that's important to an ID.

 

Some up close photos.... Can you describe what is root and what is enamel?

 

 

[Harry Pristis]

The lining of the enamel cap is the same dentin as forms the root.  The root at this stage would have been a thin dentin shell, a shell similar to that which is protected by the enamel.

 

Dentin and cementum are deposited within the crypt in a complicated progression: a kernel or "shard" of dentin is the first step. enamel, then orthodentine, more dentin, then cementum. The softest of these different materials, cementum, is often lost in fossil teeth, and sometimes death intervenes to interrupt late-stage tooth development.

[Shellseeker]

I managed to spend 3 hours last night as Richard Hulbert was discussing some new programs at the University of Florida for Paleo outreach based on Peace River Formation fossils.

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/vertpaleo/amateur-collector/pripp/

Basically, sets up collaboration between the UF Paleo Staff and local hunters, fossil clubs to

Quote

This project will include specimens both in museum collections, primarily acquired by donated from “amateur” collectors, and those in private collections. In addition to technical scientific publications, the outcomes of the project are expected to include a substantial amount of public outreach and support for K-12 education. Types of outreach may include, but are not limited to, internet sites, public lectures to fossil clubs, at museum events, and on the Florida Museum’s YouTube channel, identification guides, freely available 3D scans of specimens that can be 3D printed, fossil identification events, and more. We will work with K-12 educators, especially those in Hardee, De Soto, and surrounding counties to provide them with real and virtual fossils, data, and expertise that they can use to generate grade-appropriate lesson plans for the classes they teach.

Richard outlined some of the possibilities/potentials by reference to Grad Student Research papers.  One I really liked... We know lots about how the salinity of salt water changes over time. That salinity can be detected in the teeth of sharks that were swimming in those ancient oceans and we might be able to date when sharks were swimming over various sections of the Peace River watershed by the teeth they left behind. Just need fossil hunters to donate distressed Meg teeth and identify general locations.

Another is determining the diet of land mammals based on the isotopes in their teeth... in this case 3rd molars (upper or lower). 3D Printing of outstanding Peace River Fossils (I have a couple) to include in those educational Paleo kits for K-12 kids . @PODIGGER attended and although I have occasionally passed him on the river, it was good to shake his hand.  Richard did heap some praise on @digit and his better half for their contributions to the effort.

Then it was show & tell and Richard identifying fossils.  One club member had a gorgeous mahogany carnassial in a chunk of brown jaw that either was from a massive male jaguar or a female Atrox !!!! Great discussion.

By the way, my "tiny blue llama cap" turns out to be Hypohippus. (looks like Pliocene in this chart)

 

Thanks to @Harry Pristis and @PrehistoricFlorida for their Identifications.

[Plantguy]

Hey Jack, neat tooth! congrats!. thanks for all the details about it. 

Sorry I didnt get to see you and others and Dr Hulburt and get to that meeting. I sure wanted to but had estimators and inspector at the house working on some maintenance projects and there was just wasnt enough time to take that long hike down there thru the i75 traffic. I'm hoping Dr Hulburt will possibly pitch the same to the TBfossil club...maybe he already has..

 

I am definitely intrigued about the Peace formation/river project. I'll have to touch base with Dr.Hulburt about some questions and material. 

 

Regards, Chris 

[PODIGGER]

Jack,

It was good to see you last night and see your latest finds. I would not have even known about the event if you hadn’t mentioned it here on the Forum.

I enjoyed Dr Hulbert’s presentation you covered so well above. 
The added benefit of having Dr Hulbert ID a few of my finds was a nice bonus.

 

jim 

[digit]

2 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Richard did heap some praise on @digit and his better half for their contributions to the effort.

I guess I owe Richard that $20 after all.

 

I've already donated some sloth, camel, bison, peccary and mammoth teeth to the project. Those teeth sat long enough in my little collection and are now going to find more usefulness than objects of adoration on my shelf.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Shellseeker]

3 hours ago, Plantguy said:

Hey Jack, neat tooth! congrats!. thanks for all the details about it. 

Sorry I didnt get to see you and others and Dr Hulburt and get to that meeting. I sure wanted to but had estimators and inspector at the house working on some maintenance projects and there was just wasnt enough time to take that long hike down there thru the i75 traffic. I'm hoping Dr Hulburt will possibly pitch the same to the TBfossil club...maybe he already has..

 

He has not.  He made the comment as he started that the last pre_Covid presentation he made was to the Lee County Fossil club also. You might suggest to your Speakers Chairman that they ask Richard to come.... PRiPP is now his primary presentation.

 

[digit]

3 hours ago, Plantguy said:

I'm hoping Dr Hulburt will possibly pitch the same to the TBfossil club...maybe he already has..

Been there, done that.

 

He gave that presentation (virtually) back in December 2020. You can see the recorded presentation here:

 

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Shellseeker]

I picked up the Abstract from a paper by Bruce J McFadden, So far this is my only reference for a Florida location for Hypohippus.

For those of you not familiar with the Geography, the Peace River runs directly thru the " Bone Valley Fm of the Central Florida Phosphate mining district. So why have I not been finding Peace River Hypohippus teeth for the last 10 years.  One possible explanation is that the Peace River has only cut into the river bottom 10-15 feet and those drag lines operating a 5 hundred yards away are cutting down 30-40 feet.

 

 

[Plantguy]

On 10/22/2021 at 2:29 PM, digit said:

Been there, done that.

 

He gave that presentation (virtually) back in December 2020. You can see the recorded presentation here:

 

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

Thanks!