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Great white tooth?


Jerrychang

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Jerrychang

The seller said it was found by a diver in Beaufort county, South Carolina.
The bourlette,the root and the serration were damaged .

The seller said it is a great white shark tooth, but I’m not so sure.

 

13935522-4EC3-4CE6-8C52-3E0F5B60F437.thumb.jpeg.1eac6d93a405ca96fcdb224f14d029fe.jpeg4B5CDA37-648C-4036-95C0-3B9E2DE924A3.thumb.jpeg.a82dcc83edda0d43d8bf6d7af12e519f.jpeg1462EC58-5679-4594-B845-B37E8E423CC0.thumb.jpeg.58fdbe8d905c568a8c191b626084d8d6.jpeg33F8E0A7-62BD-4BCD-BFE2-061A21925659.thumb.jpeg.710311d7aea8cb799aa3db06a80ef4da.jpeg

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Fossildude19

Looks like a Great White to me.

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Jerrychang
11 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Looks like a Great White to me.

I’m wondering what characteristics make you think so?

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Shellseeker
3 hours ago, Jerrychang said:

I’m wondering what characteristics make you think so?

1) No Cusps

2) Length .. From the east coast of the US, that means Megalodon, Great White, Mako

3) Mako does not have serrations. 

There are only 2 choices left...

4) Shape... there are only a couple of tooth positions that are similar between Meg and GW

5) Great White lacks a Bourlette.. If yours has one, it is very narrow.

6) Size and regularity of serrations.Megs have more consistent serrations.

 

It is difficult in this case,  and experts can disagree.  I lean slightly to Meg over GW based on serrations, shape, bourlette.in that order.

 

2017May23GreatWhiteTxT.thumb.jpg.a72f2ef52435f0fd00f917c44a6b1b9f.jpgIMG_4237.JPG.321e22dcff6ade6964ea5ece109d9fe4.JPG

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Jerrychang
42 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

1) No Cusps

2) Length .. From the east coast of the US, that means Megalodon, Great White, Mako

3) Mako does not have serrations. 

There are only 2 choices left...

4) Shape... there are only a couple of tooth positions that are similar between Meg and GW

5) Great White lacks a Bourlette.. If yours has one, it is very narrow.

6) Size and regularity of serrations.Megs have more consistent serrations.

 

It is difficult in this case,  and experts can disagree.  I lean slightly to Meg over GW based on serrations, shape, bourlette.in that order.

 

2017May23GreatWhiteTxT.thumb.jpg.a72f2ef52435f0fd00f917c44a6b1b9f.jpgIMG_4237.JPG.321e22dcff6ade6964ea5ece109d9fe4.JPG

Thanks for the explanation.  In addition, the specimens in the picture are really some enviable collections!

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doushantuo

I think "bourlette" is not the right term. (bourrelet)

 

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Top Trilo

After reading @Shellseeker's explanation, I have to agree with Megalodon. The bourlette could have easily eroded away. I highlighted the area where the bourlette may have been. As Shellseeker pointed out the serrations are much more consistent with megalodon. White Shark teeth have more pointy triangle shaped serrations that are spaced further apart than the rounder megalodon serrations which are closer together. Had it been complete slant height would be over three inches long which is on the extremely large end for white sharks.

image.png.7e556dcbadecc09c6793ef2a36972c7f.png

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Fossildude19
32 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

I think "bourlette" is not the right term.(bourrelet)

 

You would be mistaken.   ;)

 

From Wikipedia:

"A bourrelet is a portion of an elongated artillery projectile which is used in conjunction with the projectile's driving band, or rotating band, to stabilize its flight."

 

When talking about shark teeth, the term is Bourlette.

From Phatfossils:

"On the lingual side of the tooth there is a area known as the bourlette, a V shaped thinner enameled band where the crown meets the root."

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doushantuo

Tim, honest truth:

I read voluminously, and it's getting harder.

Which is why depression is hitting me lately

 

I think I've developed a modicum of dyslexia

You're perfectly right of course.

Ironically enough I was going to read this:

 

 

10634343487utsharyt00 (2).jpg

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Jerrychang
1 hour ago, Top Trilo said:

After reading @Shellseeker's explanation, I have to agree with Megalodon. The bourlette could have easily eroded away. I highlighted the area where the bourlette may have been. As Shellseeker pointed out the serrations are much more consistent with megalodon. White Shark teeth have more pointy triangle shaped serrations that are spaced further apart than the rounder megalodon serrations which are closer together. Had it been complete slant height would be over three inches long which is on the extremely large end for white sharks.

image.png.7e556dcbadecc09c6793ef2a36972c7f.png

This is another "Great White Shark" specimen product from the same seller.

It’s 2.375 inches at the longest side, and it was found in the same place .

I think it looks more like a great white shark than the previous one?

5A4015DA-BD2D-4EA7-9228-7D3DDCF47F3B.jpeg.7e0bdc255f644c1e047621c1d9a437e1.jpegC4A39952-DECF-4286-B3D6-6DFCE06C80D6.jpeg.74e2564e7244af0c1751d448cfa76f9c.jpeg

Edited by Jerrychang
Wrong word
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Shellseeker
2 hours ago, Jerrychang said:

 In addition, the specimens in the picture are really some enviable collections!

I am truly blessed to live close to Bone Valley Florida. All 3 were found in the same week in a deeper hole, on top of clay, with the water levels very low.  As for your new added tooth,  you must ask yourself why this seller always has severe damage to the Bourlette area,  when that is a primary differentiator. Great Whites do not have a bourlette... at all

2017May23rd_IMG_4018.thumb.jpg.d192f7ae7b40c1250b4a1740bcd097f7.jpg

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Top Trilo
28 minutes ago, Jerrychang said:

This is another "Great White Shark" specimen product from the same seller.

It’s 2.375 inches at the longest side, and it was found in the same place .

I think it looks more like a great white shark than the previous one?

5A4015DA-BD2D-4EA7-9228-7D3DDCF47F3B.jpeg.7e0bdc255f644c1e047621c1d9a437e1.jpegC4A39952-DECF-4286-B3D6-6DFCE06C80D6.jpeg.74e2564e7244af0c1751d448cfa76f9c.jpeg

This one is missing more so harder to tell, but I would call this one a megalodon too. I think I can see what is left of the bourlette, it has a slightly different texture than the rest of the root. Also the serrations again. I found an image that illustrates what I was talking about earlier.

SEM photographs of tooth serrations in five species. A , C . auriculatus . B , C . subauriculatus . C , C . megalodon . D , C . carcharias . E , Sacaco species. Serrations in C . auriculatus , C . subauriculatus , and C . megalodon are highly regular and more lobed than those of C . carcharias and the Sacaco species. Serrations in C . carcharias have a more pointed tip, and serrations in the Sacaco species are highly irregular. Scale bar equals 1 mm. 

From https://www.researchgate.net/figure/SEM-photographs-of-tooth-serrations-in-five-species-A-C-auriculatus-B-C_fig8_253767853

 

The one labeled C. carcharias is the great white and C. megalodon is megalodon. With the GW you can see the triangle shaped serrations and the wide gaps without a line (not sure if there is a name for it) separating the serrations. As opposed to megalodon with rounder serrations, smaller gaps, and a line between.

 

Edit: By line I mean this part

image.png.61667a89eca8eb87e48b5daf60c6f1c1.png

Edited by Top Trilo
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ThePhysicist

I hold the contrarian opinion - these are both GW. I agree it is a tougher call.

 

1. The serrations are worn, but they are irregular and more closely match those of GW. In fact, to me they are indistinguishable.

 

Tooth 1:

13935522-4EC3-4CE6-8C52-3E0F5B60F437.jpeg.f37e05c026c5df2f89e89ad496d2213a.jpeg.9ffd82e841b2a32bb556630bc9331b3d.jpeg

Tooth 2:

503189075_5A4015DA-BD2D-4EA7-9228-7D3DDCF47F3B.jpeg.7e0bdc255f644c1e047621c1d9a437e1copy.jpeg.84384aa22cc3f6787280173028c940f2.jpeg

worn GW:

566204158_fossil-great-white-shark-tooth-werner-lehmanncopy.jpeg.fbe8517d14b9d600e7eef16d07dbcfc1.jpeg

 

2. There is no evidence of a bourlette. Note there is little to no curvature when the enamel meets the bourlette of megalodon, and "curls up" to meet the root at the foot of the crown. On these teeth, the enamel has curvature at the foot of the crown. I believe the bourlette you're seeing is pareidolia. 

 

Megalodon-rex.gif.b1d1da7b0f08111ad76595b73a0c4719.gif

 

Compare with another GW (curvature also visible via enamel cracks):

fossil-great-white-shark-tooth-werner-lehmann.thumb.jpeg.e19422836d584059efda93b1e288a193.jpeg5A4015DA-BD2D-4EA7-9228-7D3DDCF47F3B.jpeg.7e0bdc255f644c1e047621c1d9a437e1.jpeg.cc088175f48bcea71d187656e8a9d0db.jpeg891831176_13935522-4EC3-4CE6-8C52-3E0F5B60F437.jpeg.f37e05c026c5df2f89e89ad496d2213acopy.thumb.jpeg.b1327f32c6dfcac57b0fac8bc425f38c.jpeg

Note that the edges are roughly straight from foot to apex - something less common in megs.

 

3. Wrinkling of the enamel at the foot of the crown is characteristic in some GW:

www.FossilEra.com-specimen-254-66078-2.jpg.4bf94a5ca24f1e89cb23207e3ebebd34.jpgC4A39952-DECF-4286-B3D6-6DFCE06C80D6.jpeg.74e2564e7244af0c1751d448cfa76f9c.jpeg.2c1f6692af40a8f0e1c1b47ce92b7140.jpeg

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Jerrychang
8 hours ago, Top Trilo said:

This one is missing more so harder to tell, but I would call this one a megalodon too. I think I can see what is left of the bourlette, it has a slightly different texture than the rest of the root. Also the serrations again. I found an image that illustrates what I was talking about earlier.

SEM photographs of tooth serrations in five species. A , C . auriculatus . B , C . subauriculatus . C , C . megalodon . D , C . carcharias . E , Sacaco species. Serrations in C . auriculatus , C . subauriculatus , and C . megalodon are highly regular and more lobed than those of C . carcharias and the Sacaco species. Serrations in C . carcharias have a more pointed tip, and serrations in the Sacaco species are highly irregular. Scale bar equals 1 mm. 

From https://www.researchgate.net/figure/SEM-photographs-of-tooth-serrations-in-five-species-A-C-auriculatus-B-C_fig8_253767853

 

The one labeled C. carcharias is the great white and C. megalodon is megalodon. With the GW you can see the triangle shaped serrations and the wide gaps without a line (not sure if there is a name for it) separating the serrations. As opposed to megalodon with rounder serrations, smaller gaps, and a line between.

 

Edit: By line I mean this part

image.png.61667a89eca8eb87e48b5daf60c6f1c1.png

 

58 minutes ago, ThePhysicist said:

I hold the contrarian opinion - these are both GW. I agree it is a tougher call.

 

1. The serrations are worn, but they are irregular and more closely match those of GW. In fact, to me they are indistinguishable.

 

Tooth 1:

13935522-4EC3-4CE6-8C52-3E0F5B60F437.jpeg.f37e05c026c5df2f89e89ad496d2213a.jpeg.9ffd82e841b2a32bb556630bc9331b3d.jpeg

Tooth 2:

503189075_5A4015DA-BD2D-4EA7-9228-7D3DDCF47F3B.jpeg.7e0bdc255f644c1e047621c1d9a437e1copy.jpeg.84384aa22cc3f6787280173028c940f2.jpeg

worn GW:

566204158_fossil-great-white-shark-tooth-werner-lehmanncopy.jpeg.fbe8517d14b9d600e7eef16d07dbcfc1.jpeg

 

2. There is no evidence of a bourlette. Note there is little to no curvature when the enamel meets the bourlette of megalodon, and "curls up" to meet the root at the foot of the crown. On these teeth, the enamel has curvature at the foot of the crown. I believe the bourlette you're seeing is pareidolia. 

 

Megalodon-rex.gif.b1d1da7b0f08111ad76595b73a0c4719.gif

 

Compare with another GW (curvature also visible via enamel cracks):

fossil-great-white-shark-tooth-werner-lehmann.thumb.jpeg.e19422836d584059efda93b1e288a193.jpeg5A4015DA-BD2D-4EA7-9228-7D3DDCF47F3B.jpeg.7e0bdc255f644c1e047621c1d9a437e1.jpeg.cc088175f48bcea71d187656e8a9d0db.jpeg891831176_13935522-4EC3-4CE6-8C52-3E0F5B60F437.jpeg.f37e05c026c5df2f89e89ad496d2213acopy.thumb.jpeg.b1327f32c6dfcac57b0fac8bc425f38c.jpeg

Note that the edges are roughly straight from foot to apex - something less common in megs.

 

3. Wrinkling of the enamel at the foot of the crown is characteristic in some GW:

www.FossilEra.com-specimen-254-66078-2.jpg.4bf94a5ca24f1e89cb23207e3ebebd34.jpgC4A39952-DECF-4286-B3D6-6DFCE06C80D6.jpeg.74e2564e7244af0c1751d448cfa76f9c.jpeg.2c1f6692af40a8f0e1c1b47ce92b7140.jpeg

After reading the first response about serrations, I originally thought that the teeth serrations of great white sharks should be obvious.  But then I saw the next response and another product, and I became not so sure again.
59B986C2-39E9-4605-8204-12A07EDBFA96.thumb.jpeg.f989719ec932a625ab925319fc2bff11.jpegI think this should be one of the reasons that the ancestors of great white sharks were considered megalodons in the past.

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Jerrychang
On 10/18/2021 at 1:53 PM, Shellseeker said:

I am truly blessed to live close to Bone Valley Florida. All 3 were found in the same week in a deeper hole, on top of clay, with the water levels very low.  As for your new added tooth,  you must ask yourself why this seller always has severe damage to the Bourlette area,  when that is a primary differentiator. Great Whites do not have a bourlette... at all

2017May23rd_IMG_4018.thumb.jpg.d192f7ae7b40c1250b4a1740bcd097f7.jpg

I really hope I have the opportunity to go there once.  Also, do you need to dive to collect them?

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Jerrychang
On 10/18/2021 at 9:25 PM, ThePhysicist said:

the enamel has curvature at the foot of the crown

I think the meaning here can be seen in these two specimens.

 

F0197989-1E0C-4201-976E-B561F191594E.thumb.jpeg.d26970ce354a3c1ca436dcac5ce1d52c.jpeg

I took out a small mako shark and megalodon teeth, and I could see the mako shark teeth had the curvature  mentioned above.  In addition, the mako shark should be more similar to the great white shark, compared to the megalodon?

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Top Trilo
19 hours ago, ThePhysicist said:

I hold the contrarian opinion - these are both GW. I agree it is a tougher call.

 

1. The serrations are worn, but they are irregular and more closely match those of GW. In fact, to me they are indistinguishable.

 

Tooth 1:

13935522-4EC3-4CE6-8C52-3E0F5B60F437.jpeg.f37e05c026c5df2f89e89ad496d2213a.jpeg.9ffd82e841b2a32bb556630bc9331b3d.jpeg

Tooth 2:

503189075_5A4015DA-BD2D-4EA7-9228-7D3DDCF47F3B.jpeg.7e0bdc255f644c1e047621c1d9a437e1copy.jpeg.84384aa22cc3f6787280173028c940f2.jpeg

worn GW:

566204158_fossil-great-white-shark-tooth-werner-lehmanncopy.jpeg.fbe8517d14b9d600e7eef16d07dbcfc1.jpeg

 

2. There is no evidence of a bourlette. Note there is little to no curvature when the enamel meets the bourlette of megalodon, and "curls up" to meet the root at the foot of the crown. On these teeth, the enamel has curvature at the foot of the crown. I believe the bourlette you're seeing is pareidolia. 

 

Megalodon-rex.gif.b1d1da7b0f08111ad76595b73a0c4719.gif

 

Compare with another GW (curvature also visible via enamel cracks):

fossil-great-white-shark-tooth-werner-lehmann.thumb.jpeg.e19422836d584059efda93b1e288a193.jpeg5A4015DA-BD2D-4EA7-9228-7D3DDCF47F3B.jpeg.7e0bdc255f644c1e047621c1d9a437e1.jpeg.cc088175f48bcea71d187656e8a9d0db.jpeg891831176_13935522-4EC3-4CE6-8C52-3E0F5B60F437.jpeg.f37e05c026c5df2f89e89ad496d2213acopy.thumb.jpeg.b1327f32c6dfcac57b0fac8bc425f38c.jpeg

Note that the edges are roughly straight from foot to apex - something less common in megs.

 

3. Wrinkling of the enamel at the foot of the crown is characteristic in some GW:

www.FossilEra.com-specimen-254-66078-2.jpg.4bf94a5ca24f1e89cb23207e3ebebd34.jpgC4A39952-DECF-4286-B3D6-6DFCE06C80D6.jpeg.74e2564e7244af0c1751d448cfa76f9c.jpeg.2c1f6692af40a8f0e1c1b47ce92b7140.jpeg

1. After blowing up the images of the serrations on the first two teeth I have to agree with you on the first one. I can find no evidence of the "line" between the very worn down serrations. However the second tooth I disagree still.

Not sure if the "line" (is there a name for it) is characteristic for identifying GW v Meg but it is there on the second tooth.

image.png.0eb9290a192075a43e68d7a75e5686a1.pngimage.png.5583591467536b025806189b68ada42b.png

2. You may be right about the bourlette on the first tooth being nothing but pareidolia but the second one I'm fairly certain I see evidence of a bourlette.

image.png.b88b69356b0d89e9bee3d9acf5bc1296.png

Being so worn, I am not sure you can say with confidence where it does and does not curl with only the one image of the lingual side.

 

You are definitely more knowledgeable on the subject than I, I'm just not seeing GW on the second tooth.

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Shellseeker
On 10/18/2021 at 9:25 PM, ThePhysicist said:

I hold the contrarian opinion - these are both GW. I agree it is a tougher call.

 Good Analysis.  Thanks for taking the time and adding the details...

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ThePhysicist
On 10/18/2021 at 9:33 PM, Jerrychang said:

 In addition, the mako shark should be more similar to the great white shark, compared to the megalodon?

True, this "mako" is really an extinct white shark - much more closely related to the modern-day great white. 

 

On 10/19/2021 at 3:02 PM, Top Trilo said:

Not sure if the "line" (is there a name for it) is characteristic for identifying GW v Meg but it is there on the second tooth.

I think I now understand the feature you pointed out. And no, it's not diagnostic since I can see similar features on my worn GW teeth. I would be more convinced by seeing a higher-resolution image. What's more important is the irregularity of the serrations - that's really one of the clinchers in the ID. 

 

On 10/19/2021 at 3:02 PM, Top Trilo said:

You may be right about the bourlette on the first tooth being nothing but pareidolia but the second one I'm fairly certain I see evidence of a bourlette.

Here's a meg with a worn bourlette for comparison:

b85ac4f71f189ff1d762efd951d79d4a.image.582x825.thumb.jpg.a90c0db8bd63bf814716f6444e61e07a.jpg

 

With the blown-up image, you can also see enamel wrinkling on the lingual surface as well - rare in megs, common in GW's.

On 10/19/2021 at 3:02 PM, Top Trilo said:

Being so worn, I am not sure you can say with confidence where it does and does not curl with only the one image of the lingual side.

 

That's a fair point, I largely deduced it from the lighting (highlights vs. no highlights indicate differently-angled surfaces), and contours of the surface indicated by the enamel cracks. 

 

On 10/19/2021 at 3:02 PM, Top Trilo said:

You are definitely more knowledgeable on the subject than I, I'm just not seeing GW on the second tooth.

That's no reason for me to be right, I appreciate the discussion! :)

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Shellseeker
On 10/18/2021 at 10:35 PM, Jerrychang said:

I really hope I have the opportunity to go there once.  Also, do you need to dive to collect them?

Jerry,

I missed this original post.

Mostly, I hunt the Peace River and have been doing so for the last 15 years.  It is 62 miles long, 50-75 feet wide, between 3 and 12 feet deep, unless it is rainy season and may be 10 feet deeper. There are never guarantees but the river has many Megalodons ( I once saw a hunter pull 62 mostly whole Megs in an afternoon),  some Makos, and few Great Whites.

Some hunters dive with scuba or hookah rigs, but the basic technique is build a sieve, and shovel gravel from the river bed into the sieve.

In the 1st photo, Kayaks in the left edge, in the 2nd photo, sieve in the foreground.

The Peace River is quiet and serene. It has improved my outlook on life dramatically.

 

I hope you do hunt the Peace River someday. The permit fee is $5 a year, You do not need the Kayak. Some places, I park my pickup and carry in a sieve and a shovel.

 

DSCN0716.thumb.jpg.9cb7bbb153c041f6464e01cde0ddd2c2.jpg

LookingdownstreamCCLog.jpg.93e5875b4df8316d09fddfda2fe5ee62.jpg

 

IMG_2709.thumb.JPG.9c4c27f5e64044fd44e489ac7705956f.JPG

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Jerrychang
2 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Jerry,

I missed this original post.

Mostly, I hunt the Peace River and have been doing so for the last 15 years.  It is 62 miles long, 50-75 feet wide, between 3 and 12 feet deep, unless it is rainy season and may be 10 feet deeper. There are never guarantees but the river has many Megalodons ( I once saw a hunter pull 62 mostly whole Megs in an afternoon),  some Makos, and few Great Whites.

Some hunters dive with scuba or hookah rigs, but the basic technique is build a sieve, and shovel gravel from the river bed into the sieve.

In the 1st photo, Kayaks in the left edge, in the 2nd photo, sieve in the foreground.

The Peace River is quiet and serene. It has improved my outlook on life dramatically.

 

I hope you do hunt the Peace River someday. The permit fee is $5 a year, You do not need the Kayak. Some places, I park my pickup and carry in a sieve and a shovel.

 

DSCN0716.thumb.jpg.9cb7bbb153c041f6464e01cde0ddd2c2.jpg

LookingdownstreamCCLog.jpg.93e5875b4df8316d09fddfda2fe5ee62.jpg

 

IMG_2709.thumb.JPG.9c4c27f5e64044fd44e489ac7705956f.JPG

Thanks a lot for sharing.
Because my country is a new island, the geological age is extremely young.  And the population is quite dense, there is hardly such a quiet and undeveloped place where fossils can be found.

Now it has become the top three options for my travel destination abroad.  
I will definitely go there when the epidemic is over and my parents think I am a full adult.(for my traditional Asian parents, seems I should be over 30 to become an adult)

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