msantix Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 Hi, I have this tooth from the Akrabou Formation in Morocco, and I was told it is a Plesiosaur tooth most likely belonging to the genus Libonectes (An Elasmosaur). I just wanted to get an opinion if the id is correct or whether it could belong to something else like a Polycotylid. The tooth is just over 3cm in length. Thank you! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paleoworld-101 Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 (edited) Higher resolution and more in-focus images are likely needed, and a couple of different angles wouldn't hurt either (side-on view included, to assess how thick/rounded it is). Also, is this fake matrix? By which i mean, has the specimen been mounted on artificial rock? Edited November 18, 2021 by Paleoworld-101 "In Africa, one can't help becoming caught up in the spine-chilling excitement of the hunt. Perhaps, it has something to do with a memory of a time gone by, when we were the prey, and our nights were filled with darkness..." -Eternal Enemies: Lions And Hyenas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msantix Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Paleoworld-101 said: Higher resolution and more in-focus images are likely needed, and a couple of different angles wouldn't hurt either (side-on view included, to assess how thick/rounded it is). Also, is this fake matrix? By which i mean, has the specimen been mounted on artificial rock? The matrix is real, it was just prepped with vinegar to remove some of the matrix covering the tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 4 hours ago, Paleoworld-101 said: Also, is this fake matrix? By which i mean, has the specimen been mounted on artificial rock? 1 hour ago, msantix said: The matrix is real, it was just prepped with vinegar to remove some of the matrix covering the tooth. Though I haven't heard of vinegar being used to clean these teeth before - something that isn't really necessary as the matrix is soft enough to scratch it of with either a preparation needle or wooden toothpick after which it can be cleaned with just a dampened cotton pad or cloth - it doesn't sound like something entirely out of the blue either. In any case, the matrix is natural. However, much rather than the use of vinegar I suspect that the difference in colour observed on the matrix has to do with a copious amount of glue having been applied in order to secure the specimen. This type of matrix can be extremely soft, and both it and the teeth it contains can therefore very easily break. Compare to the below Tethysaurus nopscai vertebrae, which are embedded in the same type of matrix and have similarly been treated with a glue coating over the matrix to turn it into a solid block, effecting the colour of the original matrix (which is supposed to be a bright, almost white, yellow): 4 hours ago, Paleoworld-101 said: Higher resolution and more in-focus images are likely needed, and a couple of different angles wouldn't hurt either (side-on view included, to assess how thick/rounded it is). I agree with respect to this, though. My initial hunch, based on shape, is that this would indeed be an elasmosaur tooth - and therefore, by default, Libonectes atlasense - but I cannot get a proper impression of how thick the tooth is and get the impression that the tooth apex is devoid of ornamentation. Te latter would suggest this may not be an elasmosaur tooth, but rather a polycotylid. Better photographs of the ornamentation are needed to make out the difference. I refer you to the below post: In particular, compare the following specimens: Polycotylid tooth from the Akrabou Formation, either M. anguirostris or T. longicollis - observe the striae are restricted to the base of the tooth Elasmosaur teeth from the Akrabou Formation, Libonectes atlasense - observe the fine striations running the full length of the tooth 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msantix Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 I can sort of see that the striations are running the full length of the tooth which would probably imply it belongs to Libonectes, but I'm not confident with identifying it as an Elasmosaur tooth just yet. It is a thin needle shaped tooth only about 0.5cm in width. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 8 minutes ago, msantix said: I can sort of see that the striations are running the full length of the tooth which would probably imply it belongs to Libonectes, but I'm not confident with identifying it as an Elasmosaur tooth just yet. It is a thin needle shaped tooth only about 0.5cm in width. Hi Michael, If you already have the tooth in your possession, the easiest thing would be to try and take some better photographs of it, especially around the tip and one somewhat inclined from the side, and post them here (or a PM, which works for me too ). With proper photographs I think I should be able to give you a conclusive answer, as I too have seen what look like striations across the full apicobasal length of the tooth. However, when looking at the area around the tooth apex in the second photograph, as well as considering the how thin and narrow the tooth is, I don't feel confident in outright declaring this an elasmosaur tooth either - although my gut feeling tells me that it likely is. If you're only considering it's purchase at this point, and would like to be sure it's an elasmosaur tooth, I suggest you try and get the above-mentioned photographs from the seller before purchase... In either case, it's a very nice tooth. Not often that they come this size and so well-preserved Cheers, Alexander. 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msantix Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 I do have the tooth in my possession, I just took a few photos if that helps. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, msantix said: I do have the tooth in my possession, I just took a few photos if that helps. Thanks! This definitely does help. For while the extent of the striations are still difficult to make out in most photographs, the reflection of the light in the third photograph makes it clear they extend too far towards the apex to still be polycotylid. The bulbous shape that can be made out from the side is also much more in-line with elasmosaur teeth. So I'd say you have yourself a very nice Libonectes atlasense tooth there! 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msantix Posted November 18, 2021 Author Share Posted November 18, 2021 2 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: Thanks! This definitely does help. For while the extent of the striations are still difficult to make out in most photographs, the reflection of the light in the third photograph makes it clear they extend too far towards the apex to still be polycotylid. The bulbous shape that can be made out from the side is also much more in-line with elasmosaur teeth. So I'd say you have yourself a very nice Libonectes atlasense tooth there! Thank you so much! I really appreciate your help and for confirming that it is indeed an Elasmosaur tooth. I'm happy to have the tooth, though I think the one you bought is nicer! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted November 18, 2021 Share Posted November 18, 2021 41 minutes ago, msantix said: Thank you so much! I really appreciate your help and for confirming that it is indeed an Elasmosaur tooth. I'm happy to have the tooth, though I think the one you bought is nicer! Thanks! Yeah, I've been looking to add a good example of Libonectes atlasense to my collection, so was very happy to have been able to pick that one up. I even managed to clean it up a bit more, so that currently it doesn't have the spotty matrix on it any more either.... Still, as far as these elasmosaur teeth from Akrabou go, yours certainly also belongs to the top ones I've seen: they're just so often broken or without any ornamentation As for the brachauchenine pliosaur tooth I bought together with this elasmosaur: I also managed to clean it up and it's now quite a nice specimen. However, unfortunately, it's very much compressed. So I'll have to remain on the look-out for one that isn't 1 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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