Going Home again

[Shellseeker]

Sometimes I am chasing plentiful and unusual fossil in difficult locations as far as I can get from other fossil hunters. Once in a while, I return to those thrilling days of yesterday year, hunting  what are now heavily hunted areas of the Peace River between Arcadia and Bowling Green.  A little while back I did that... returning to old hunting grounds seeing what changes had occurred.  I had a wet suit on,  it was cool but sunny.  There were few people that day on the location I chose.

The gravel was still there,  just not containing too many fossils. I was either digging deep through layers of unproductive gravel or searching for thin layers of gravel rolled downstream by the summer floods or looking for places where the summer flood moved sand off deeper layers of gravel.

The only one that "worked" this day was the 1st....  dig deep. Get down under the gravel easy to dig. and that idea was semi_successful

The finds of an 8 hour day of digging...

.

There were some 30-40 additional small unbroken teeth. I keep the smallest teeth for a collector friend and my daughter get the less common Megs, Hemis,Tigers, etc. I will keep and maybe reuse the fishing lure, replacing the hook.

This is far less than I used to find 8-10 years ago, and it may not seem like much for 8 hours on the rock pile, but I am easily pleased. Among other items:

1) Concretions containing an oyster and an echinoid,

2) A Gyypdont tail Osteoderm, relatively rare find

3) 2 Turtle spurs/foot pads,

4) A couple of large fish "ballast" bones

5) A Equus earbone

6) Some distressed Megs

7) A fish vert that may be modern

8) 3 Dolphin ear bones in bad shape

9) some sawfish rostral teeth

10) A dolphin jaw bone

 

But what about the identifications?

Can @Al Dente or @Sacha comment on whether this is an Abertella ?

 

I have found a number of individual Drum fish teeth in various bone valley locations.At 16 mm in diameter, is this one of them. My next largest one is half this size. Comment on the size of drum fish teeth, and whether they have reduced in size since the Pliocene.

 

Finally,  a fossil I thought I recognized, but now not so sure.... certainly unusual, but Sloth does not have enamel.

 

So,  a sunny and cool day,  birds were singing,  some interesting finds.... you can go back to visit places associated with good memories, and sometimes make a new one.

[fifbrindacier]

 

@caterpillar @Coco ?

Edited November 18, 2021 by fifbrindacier

[Sacha]

You got quite a pile of stuff there Jack, but I can help with the fragmentary sand dollar. If its a silica replacement, knowing where you generally dig, the odds are good, but you need to ask Roger if he can tell with that small potion.

[garyc]

Your “unusual “ piece reminds me of a piece I have that has been tentatively identified as a peccary tooth root

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, Sacha said:

You got quite a pile of stuff there Jack, but I can help with the fragmentary sand dollar. If its a silica replacement, knowing where you generally dig, the odds are good, but you need to ask Roger if he can tell with that small potion.

Thanks,  John

Yes, silica replaced Sand Dollar in the Peace River. We know of one that has been identified,  the Abertella dengleri. In one sense, the question is "Have any other Sand Dollars of approximately this size been identified from the Peace River?"

Just happens that I will be seeing Roger on Saturday.  I will let you know what he says.

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, garyc said:

Your “unusual “ piece reminds me of a piece I have that has been tentatively identified as a peccary tooth root

Thanks Gary,

One key is that it is enamel without any sign of a root. This generally means a tooth forming in the Jaw,  with the animal dying prior to having the root form.

I went to a fossil club meeting tonight.  Without prompting , an ex_club president said it was Sloth.... specifically Harlan's. Since Sloth do not have enamel,  I am wondering if this is made of dentine.

 

It is Length 23 mm, 16 mm, 8 mm

 

An excellent photo from @Harry Pristis.  I wonder if 23 mm is consistent with the size of these juvenile teeth.

 

 

 

[Harry Pristis]

My understanding, Jack, is that sloth teeth are composed to two different types of osteodentine.  The harder of the two types is in a thin layer on the exterior of the tooth which, with wear, presents a shearing rim around the occlusal surface.

[Coco]

Hi,

 

Jack, how big is your sea urchin, or what’s left of it? It’s gonna be hard for me to help you with the inside of that sea urchin.

 

Coco

[Shellseeker]

9 hours ago, Coco said:

Hi, Jack, how big is your sea urchin, or what’s left of it? It’s gonna be hard for me to help you with the inside of that sea urchin.

Coco

Coco,  Thank you for your response and interest.  Here is some background to my question.

 

A little background to my thinking.

I am an addicted fossil hunter and have deep expertise in many of the fossil fauna that can be found in the Peace River. So, from fragments and slivers, I can recognize and identify 90% of the shark teeth I find... from serrations or lack thereof, from shape of the roots, from foramin groves or lack thereof, etc , etc. I have similar capabilities in distinguishing enamel,  Mammoth, Mastodon, Gomph, Whale, Dolphin, Horse, Rhino, etc etc etc So far very small segments,  I can identify a fossil to Genus or even species most of the time. Took about 15 years of constant hunting to develop that knowledge.

 

Now, in the same hunting areas, I start seeing broken pieces ( sometimes large) of Sand dollars, Echinoids, sea urchins and wonder of there are TFF experts who can detect and identify such fossils by fragments found in their hunting areas. I think yes.

 

Here are some  measurements:

 

and a slightly different view of the Echinoid "petals", each of which are 30 mm long.

 

So, my question of you and likely Roger Portell tomorrow is: Assuming that this were a not_uncommon echinoid in your preferred hunting areas and you found this fragment, would it be unique enough to identify the Genus.species?

I come seeking knowledge.  Are the petals (shape, size (length/width), positioning on the complete fossil, detailed features) deterministic factors or do they tend to similar or indeterminate across similar sized echinoids. 

Here is a previous TFF thread where I was asking a similar question on petal positioning for an Abertella dengleri.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/113886-half_echinoid-silicified/

[Shellseeker]

14 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

My understanding, Jack, is that sloth teeth are composed to two different types of osteodentine.  The harder of the two types is in a thin layer on the exterior of the tooth which, with wear, presents a shearing rim around the occlusal surface.

Thank you.  Many times you give me answer that I have to think about.  That's a good thing.  Jack

[Coco]

Hi,

 

Thank you for the measures. My question was intended to help the most accustomed people think, because I don’t know American wildlife.

 

Depending on the species of sea urchins, ambulacres (petals) may be more or less long, more or less wide, and even different in shape. In addition, the position of the mouth and periproctus (anus) help a lot but I believe that they are no longer there.

 

I think Albertella could be. The measurements seem to match.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Type-specimens-of-species-of-the-genus-Abertella-Abertella-dengleri-n-sp-is-figured_fig4_290545936

 

Coco

Edited November 21, 2021 by Coco

[Shellseeker]

20 hours ago, Coco said:

Depending on the species of sea urchins, ambulacres (petals) may be more or less long, more or less wide, and even different in shape. In addition, the position of the mouth and periproctus (anus) help a lot but I believe that they are no longer there.

Thank you.

For background, I was with Roger Portell, University of Florida/Museum of Natural history, for dinner last night and he identified both of my finds as Abertella dengleri and stated that the only Abertella in the Peace River is dengleri. From your reference, this is the top of figure 6 , the ambulances in my recent find seem to be exact replica in shape and size for those in 6 b below. I only have time for this short note before going to sleep and out tomorrow. I wanted to update you more quickly than 24 hours from now.  Jack

[Coco]

Hi,

 

Good !

 

Coco