Looks like a tooth

[grg1109]

I don't really believe it's a tooth...but what is it?  Found at Penn Dixie, NYS...Middle Devonian. Photos for size, back and front.

Thanks

Greg

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by grg1109

[Fossildude19]

I'd like to see views of the top, bottom and both sides.

[grg1109]

Here are the rest of the photos you asked for: Bottom(pointed end), Top(flat end) and each side and further away point.

Greg

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by grg1109

[Ludwigia]

I'm not very knowledgeable on the subject, so I'm just guessing. Maybe a placoderm tooth?

[Fossildude19]

The pustulose/bumpy texture reminds me of arthropod, but I don't know beyond that.

Maybe @fossilcrazy will have some idea?

[Kane]

Looks to me like a pygidial lappet from an asteropygine, like Bellacartwrightia. (Although 1 cm long would make it possibly too large?). 

 

As an example: 

[grg1109]

At first sight...I thought tooth...but, then remembered my imagination.  Under the microscope I thought I had confirmed it was not a tooth...I thought teeth had vertical/angular striations.  Although I've never found a tooth...I've seen many on the forums...but, never thought too much about them.  I have lightened up the photos and replaced the darker ones,

 

Kane...those have convex bumps...mine concave...( I think), since I edited them (lightened them)...I'm not sure.  But that's what I was thinking...but would have to have been very large...but, still not out of the question.  If so, that would have made my day to find the whole creature!!

 

Like my friend says:  "You find the strangest things...I have no idea what it is!"  LOL

Greg

Edited December 14, 2021 by grg1109

[fossilcrazy]

I'm going to ring in on this specimen by saying I believe it is fish material, no visible wear patterns for a tooth, cross-section makes me think Placoderm, as well as the pustules with one side more pronounced than the other side. I am unable to place where on the headshield this would have been from, or which Placoderm it belonged. I'd like to hear from an expert on Placoderm anatomy.

 

[grg1109]

I asked "Paleo Joe", and he said "perhaps piece of a placoderm, part of the external dermal plate.

Greg

[ScottBlooded]

2 hours ago, grg1109 said:

I asked "Paleo Joe", and he said "perhaps piece of a placoderm, part of the external dermal plate.

Greg

This is such a cool find to me, I’d love to hear a more definitive answer

[grg1109]

16 hours ago, ScottBlooded said:

This is such a cool find to me, I’d love to hear a more definitive answer

Yes, I would also...but, I don't know any specialist.  "Paleo Joe" is the only person I know that talked and found Placoderm fossils.

Greg

[JohnJ]

@jdp

@Anomotodon

@Carl

[jdp]

I don't think it's placoderm. I'd expect to see vascular cellular bone on the inside of the structure if it were placoderm. I think arthropod is probably a fair guess.

[grg1109]

On 12/14/2021 at 6:51 AM, Kane said:

Looks to me like a pygidial lappet from an asteropygine,

Although I believe all of the guesses are still on the table this one makes the most sense to me.  Perhaps even something that hasn't been thought of yet.   Wouldn't the pygidial lappet be flat or "flatesh" on the bottom side?  Having said that, I don't think I've ever seen the bottom of one of these.

Greg

Edited December 16, 2021 by grg1109

[Carl]

On 12/15/2021 at 12:16 PM, JohnJ said:

@jdp

@Anomotodon

@Carl

I've been following this with interest, but I'm not sure I can add much. It doesn't look like a tooth to me - the surface texture would be very unexpected. Placoderms, don't really have teeth, as I understand them - they often (always?) have cutting edges on the bones lining their mouths, instead, and I think they tend to be quite smooth. I don't know the rest of placoderm anatomy well enough to rule out some other skull element, although it's hard to picture. That trilobite spine is pretty convincing, but I know even less about trilobites to have a useful opinion. Intriguing!

Edited December 17, 2021 by Carl

[grg1109]

20 hours ago, jdp said:

I don't think it's placoderm. I'd expect to see vascular cellular bone on the inside of the structure if it were placoderm.

Even on something so small?  Couldn't it be just the very tip of a scale or something like that?

Greg

[grg1109]

Carl, I don't think we/I will ever know for sure.  It's such a small piece.

Thanks for your input.

Greg

[Kane]

28 minutes ago, grg1109 said:

Although I believe all of the guesses are still on the table this one makes the most sense to me.  Perhaps even something that hasn't been thought of yet.   Wouldn't the pygidial lappet be flat or "flatesh" on the bottom side?  Having said that, I don't think I've ever seen the bottom of one of these.

Greg

Here's a ventral image: 

[ScottBlooded]

4 minutes ago, Kane said:

Here's a ventral image: 

Hah, beat me by 3 minutes, looked up a plate depicting bellacartwrightia ventral view in trilobites of New York and noticed that same thing. But as you said before, wouldn’t this make him enormous?

[grg1109]

Thanks guys!  To me...these don't follow the same design as the one in question.  The one I asked about has an almost (geometrical) diamond shape, looking from the top down.  Or perhaps, I'm just not seeing it?

Greg

Edited December 16, 2021 by grg1109

[ScottBlooded]

1 hour ago, grg1109 said:

Thanks guys!  To me...these don't follow the same design as the one in question.  The one I asked about has an almost (geometrical) diamond shape, looking from the top down.  Or perhaps, I'm just not seeing it?

Greg

 

 

Do you mean it’s diamond shaped from this view? Because I haven’t seen any shots from this angle on a broken off lappet, it might indeed be shaped like this

[grg1109]

1 hour ago, ScottBlooded said:

Do you mean it’s diamond shaped from this view? Because I haven’t seen any shots from this angle on a broken off lappet, it might indeed be shaped like this

You're entirely right...I was thinking of this photo below but, remembered wrongly.

Thanks so much

Greg

[jdp]

2 hours ago, grg1109 said:

Even on something so small?  Couldn't it be just the very tip of a scale or something like that?

Greg

 

No.

[ScottBlooded]

I did (very rough) estimations against the Bellacartwrightia specimens in Trilobites of New York and if the proportions are similar, your specimen would have been like 8 or 9 cm long. Which is…very very cool. Not sure what the conditions are like at the spot this was collected, but I’d keep going back. 

[grg1109]

I purchased a couple of boxes from the folks at Penn Dixie before they closed for the season.  This was among the last of the rocks.  Very defineatly would have liked to find the one that belonged to this!!!  However, it was probably attacked by a Placoderm!  lol

Greg

Edited December 17, 2021 by grg1109