Small Ichthyosaurus

[DarkTr]

Hi to everyone. 

I'm preparing a new fossil which comes from Germany in the Cretaceous, these are the information that i have.

Now, I have seen that it's quite difficult both to recognize the bones and to eliminate the matrix but the work is going.

Have you some advice for this type of fossil? And, i don't want to be wrong, but i see two different bones: a black one and  a brown one. Are them two different animal or not?

For the type of preparation I'm doing is a mechanic type.

 

[Ludwigia]

We need much better resolution photos which show more detail. And please point out the features (bones?) you are talking about by marking the photos appropriately. What tools are you using?

[DarkTr]

in the first photo there is the entire fossil.

The second one there are  what i belive are vertebrae. 

The third one is the part where I have start to remove the matrix and the last one is the lower part of the fossil.

For this moment I'm using an electric engraver because I don't wanna to mess up the fossil and in fact I'm going so slow.

One of my doubt is that there are 2 different bones: a black one, like the vertebrae and some lateral bones, and a brown one where I'm working.

[jpc]

I see a string of vertebrae, but not a complete animal.  This sort of stuff looks like it really needs air abrasion or acid prep.  An electric engaver might just be too rough to do a good job.  

[DarkTr]

Yes there is a part of the Ichthyosaurus.

What kind of air abrasive powder do you recommend in this case?

[jpc]

Hard to tell without having to specimen in hand and trying a few different things, but I would guess dolomite is a good candidate.  

 

 

[DarkTr]

18 hours ago, jpc said:

Hard to tell without having to specimen in hand and trying a few different things, but I would guess dolomite is a good candidate.  

 

 

Unfortunately I haven't a sandblaster.

Can you advice me a good sandblaster that i can buy?

(I know that this question is so wide, but online I have found too many ideas) 

 

[jpc]

the best sandblasters will cost you a couple thousand dollars, but they are good.  Otherwise, do a search on this site for air abrasives or something like that.  there are a lot of discussions about this hidden in this forum.  

[Ludwigia]

Ditto as above. And I'm assuming that you are aware that you need a lot of other equipment to go along with it like a sturdy compressor, cabinet, dust collector system, water traps, etc.

[DarkTr]

16 minutes ago, Ludwigia said:

Ditto as above. And I'm assuming that you are aware that you need a lot of other equipment to go along with it like a sturdy compressor, cabinet, dust collector system, water traps, etc.

Yes, but i think that a sandblaster is the first thing to buy and the other I can buy little by lilltle

[Ludwigia]

2 hours ago, DarkTr said:

Yes, but i think that a sandblaster is the first thing to buy and the other I can buy little by lilltle

But you need most of the things which I mentioned in order to run the sandblaster properly.

[caterpillar]

First, I'll try an acid release. 5% formic acid or diluted white vinegar. The bones are safe and we would have better visibility on the block

And it's cheaper than a sandblaster

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

Wow, this is exciting! From the string of vertebrae I see I can definitely confirm this is ichthyosaur material, though not necessarily Ichthyosaurus, which is an Early Jurassic genus and not one of the derived parvipelvians that would've survived into the Lower Cretaceous - which would be ophthalmosaurs belonging to the platypterygiae. I also believe that due to the depth of the seaways in Germany at the time presence of ichthyosaur remains from the Lower Cretaceous would be rather rare and therefore potentially scientifically important. At one point, ichthyosaurs, in general, were thought to have almost disappeared in the Cretaceous, that's how rare these remains are...

 

This, of course, begs for proper and careful preparation, for which I'm afraid an engraver isn't likely to cut it (not enough control - take it from someone who also only has access to an engraver at home, but has also worked with air pens some). As such, I highly recommend you get an air pen, which you'll need to remove the coarse bits of matrix - air abrasion alone won't get you there. That is, in most cases where either air abrasion or acid is used, this is used in combination with an air scribe, as removing coarse matrix with either of these other methods is too time-consuming and costly. Of course you could still stick with your engraver, but I'd recommend upgrading it too, as the piece seems significant enough.

 

16 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

Ditto as above. And I'm assuming that you are aware that you need a lot of other equipment to go along with it like a sturdy compressor, cabinet, dust collector system, water traps, etc.

 

13 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

But you need most of the things which I mentioned in order to run the sandblaster properly.

 

The thing Roger is saying here is that an sandblaster is not a self-contained device. For one, it works on compressed air and therefore will require a sturdy compressor - from what I gather one that's more powerful than you'd strictly need for an air pen, which also puts my proposed upgrade of your engraver in the realm of the possible - as well as a cabinet to prevent the dust from flying everywhere and getting into every nook and cranny, potentially ruining things (especially mechanical or electronical) in its direct environment. Even so, you'll need a dust collector system, which includes water traps and more. There are some commercially available "self-contained" sandblasters, however, that come at least with a cabinet, but these are small, still require a compressor and lack the scalability you'd need for a project this order of magnitude.

 

Thus, if you'd like to do a good job, one way to go would indeed be to try and work with acid, which may be hazardous and cause issues in obtaining the necessary raw materials (depending on local law and regulation); have a professional preparator take care of the preparation for you (plenty of people I know, including very experienced collectors and fossil hunters do this); or see if you can book a couple of workshops at the Aathal Sauriermuseum in Switzerland. Though it may be far away from Naples and therefore expensive (as Switzerland generally is), this museum offers preparation workshops during which you have access to their tools, including air scribes (of different sizes) and sandblasters. Something similar may be available around where you live, though this is the only place I know of in my area (if I take that very broadly).

 

As to your question concerning the mixture of black and brown bones, as well as to which bones are present: it's hard to make out much from the fossil's current state. However, we've got an obvious string of vertebrae with detached neural arches above them. It looks like there might be another vertebra at the bottom right, though, if it is, not an ichthyosaurian one, but - I suspect - possibly a plesiosaurian one, going by its shape. The black piece in the lower left, the one with the ribbing, doesn't appear to be bone, however, but is the impression of an ammonite. Though fragmentary and a negative rather than a positive, it may be possible to identify it (@Ludwigia) and thereby arrive at a biostrategraphical date for the specimen as a whole. With the ichthyosaur vertebrae, ammonite and possible plesiosaur vertebra all jumbled up onto the same plate, this looks to me like a disarticulated specimen and piece of bone-bed, so be prepared to expect the unexpected

[DarkTr]

3 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Wow, this is exciting! From the string of vertebrae I see I can definitely confirm this is ichthyosaur material, though not necessarily Ichthyosaurus, which is an Early Jurassic genus and not one of the derived parvipelvians that would've survived into the Lower Cretaceous - which would be ophthalmosaurs belonging to the platypterygiae. I also believe that due to the depth of the seaways in Germany at the time presence of ichthyosaur remains from the Lower Cretaceous would be rather rare and therefore potentially scientifically important. At one point, ichthyosaurs, in general, were thought to have almost disappeared in the Cretaceous, that's how rare these remains are...

 

This, of course, begs for proper and careful preparation, for which I'm afraid an engraver isn't likely to cut it (not enough control - take it from someone who also only has access to an engraver at home, but has also worked with air pens some). As such, I highly recommend you get an air pen, which you'll need to remove the coarse bits of matrix - air abrasion alone won't get you there. That is, in most cases where either air abrasion or acid is used, this is used in combination with an air scribe, as removing coarse matrix with either of these other methods is too time-consuming and costly. Of course you could still stick with your engraver, but I'd recommend upgrading it too, as the piece seems significant enough.

 

 

 

The thing Roger is saying here is that an sandblaster is not a self-contained device. For one, it works on compressed air and therefore will require a sturdy compressor - from what I gather one that's more powerful than you'd strictly need for an air pen, which also puts my proposed upgrade of your engraver in the realm of the possible - as well as a cabinet to prevent the dust from flying everywhere and getting into every nook and cranny, potentially ruining things (especially mechanical or electronical) in its direct environment. Even so, you'll need a dust collector system, which includes water traps and more. There are some commercially available "self-contained" sandblasters, however, that come at least with a cabinet, but these are small, still require a compressor and lack the scalability you'd need for a project this order of magnitude.

 

Thus, if you'd like to do a good job, one way to go would indeed be to try and work with acid, which may be hazardous and cause issues in obtaining the necessary raw materials (depending on local law and regulation); have a professional preparator take care of the preparation for you (plenty of people I know, including very experienced collectors and fossil hunters do this); or see if you can book a couple of workshops at the Aathal Sauriermuseum in Switzerland. Though it may be far away from Naples and therefore expensive (as Switzerland generally is), this museum offers preparation workshops during which you have access to their tools, including air scribes (of different sizes) and sandblasters. Something similar may be available around where you live, though this is the only place I know of in my area (if I take that very broadly).

 

As to your question concerning the mixture of black and brown bones, as well as to which bones are present: it's hard to make out much from the fossil's current state. However, we've got an obvious string of vertebrae with detached neural arches above them. It looks like there might be another vertebra at the bottom right, though, if it is, not an ichthyosaurian one, but - I suspect - possibly a plesiosaurian one, going by its shape. The black piece in the lower left, the one with the ribbing, doesn't appear to be bone, however, but is the impression of an ammonite. Though fragmentary and a negative rather than a positive, it may be possible to identify it (@Ludwigia) and thereby arrive at a biostrategraphical date for the specimen as a whole. With the ichthyosaur vertebrae, ammonite and possible plesiosaur vertebra all jumbled up onto the same plate, this looks to me like a disarticulated specimen and piece of bone-bed, so be prepared to expect the unexpected

Thank you for the explanation.

Than I'm goingo to stop to use the vibro engraver, but yesterday I have used and I found this bone, than I think that inside there can be other bones. (I enclose the photos).

In your opinion, should I go in Switzerland, seeing I don't know about some laboratories near me in Naples, to prepare the piece? 

"Though fragmentary and a negative rather than a positive" what do you mean by negative?

If the answer is no, what air  pen and compressor do you advice? Instead about the chemical  substance, which can i use?

(sorry for the thousand of questions, but i don't want to damage the piece)

[Ludwigia]

5 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

it may be possible to identify it

There's not enough of it there to be able to even hazard a good guess without more precise stratigraphical information.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

15 minutes ago, DarkTr said:

Than I'm goingo to stop to use the vibro engraver, but yesterday I have used and I found this bone, than I think that inside there can be other bones. (I enclose the photos).

 

Yeah, I think the photographs are a lot clearer now. What I'm seeing is the already mentioned row of vertebrae towards the top. But then, in the middle and on the right towards the side, is a collection of ribs that seems to be overlain with what are probably more vertebrae central to the block (to judge from another neural process in that area). This seems to be part of the anterior end of the animal, as I now believe the bone next to the ammonite imprint may be a coracoid bone (although the shape of this bone varies wildly between ichthyosaur species through time, making it hard to identify sometimes).

 

15 minutes ago, DarkTr said:

In your opinion, should I go in Switzerland, seeing I don't know about some laboratories near me in Naples, to prepare the piece?

 

That depends on whether you're set on preparing it yourself. If so, I would indeed highly recommend taking it to Switzerland. Not only would this provide you with access to professional equipment, but you'll also get access to experienced museum preparators who, though may be not being familiar with the exact matrix you'll be working with, have plenty of guidance to give (you might need to ask for it, though, as you'll be working on a piece they can't provide direct knowledge on - but if you tell them what you want to know or do, they'll certainly help you). The problem is, though, that you'll likely not manage to finish your work in the three hours that you'll get, so that you may need to make multiple trips.

 

If you mind having somebody else take care of preparation for you, it'll be somewhat easier, as you could simply ship the block to a preparator willing to work on it and wait for them to be done.

 

15 minutes ago, DarkTr said:

"Though fragmentary and a negative rather than a positive" what do you mean by negative?

 

What I meant was that an actual fossil is typically referred to as the positive, whereas the imprint it leaves is referred to as the negative. When identifying fossils, identification is easier the more complete the fossil is. So too for ammonites, which ribbing, spikes, suture lines, and ornamentation of the keel all play their part in identification. These aspects are more difficult to make out from a negative than from a positive, and certainly more difficult from a fragment that may not include the required diagnostic features...

 

15 minutes ago, DarkTr said:

If the answer is no, what air  pen and compressor do you advice? Instead about the chemical  substance, which can i use?

(sorry for the thousand of questions, but i don't want to damage the piece)

 

Unfortunately, I too only have home remedies available for prepping my fossils, so do use a Dremel engraver where specimens aren't too sensitive or valuable, with diluted household cleaning vinegar for some mild acid work. Other than that, I'm stuck with knives, screw drivers, small chisels, a hacksaw and the likes, so can't advise you on this aspect...