Texas Pleistocene subfossils

[fossil_lover_2277]

Texas has a lot of Pleistocene bones present in the southeast portion of the state north through Dallas. From reading, they are found in a limestone gravel bed layer. Do these bones tend to be subfossils or bone that has undergone extensive mineralization? I’m curious, trying to find online if anyone has managed to extract ancient DNA from Texas bones. Much more likely from subfossils.

 

Also, would anyone have a picture of what the Pleistocene limestone gravel bed layer in Texas looks like? Thanks!

Edited February 17, 2022 by fossil_lover_2277

[JamieLynn]

I am interested in this info too. Following. 

[Oxytropidoceras]

Sounds like you are talking the Pleistocene terraces of 

the Trinity River and Sulfur rivers.

 

Some examples from Google Scholar are:

 

Cheatum, E.P. and Allen, D., 1965. Pleistocene land and 

fresh-water mollusks from North Texas. Sterkiana, 18(1),

pp.1-16.

Pattillo Jr, L.G., 1940. River Terraces in the Carrollton Area,

Dallas County, Texas. Field and Laboratory, 8(1), pp.27-32

 

Slaughter, B.H., 1960. A New Species of Smilodon from a 

Late Pleistocene Alluvial Terrace Deposit of the Trinity River. 

Journal of Paleontology, 34(3), pp.486-492.

Slaughter, B.H., 1962. The Hill-Schuler local fauna of Upper

Trinity River, Dallas and Denton Counties, Texas. Texas

Bureau of Economic Geology Report of Investigations, No. 48

 

Slaughter, B.H., 1966. The Moore Pit local fauna; Pleistocene 

of Texas. Journal of Paleontology, 49(1), pp.78-91.

 

Stovall, J.W. and McAnulty, W.N., 1950. The vertebrate fauna 

and geologic age of Trinity River terraces in Henderson County, 

Texas. American Midland Naturalist, pp.211-250.

 

These fossils appear be relatively unaltered and unmineralized.

I have not seen anything about DNA being extracted from them.

 

Yours,

 

Paul H.

[Lone Hunter]

3 hours ago, fossil_lover_2277 said:

 

 

 

Also, would anyone have a picture of what the Pleistocene limestone gravel bed layer in Texas looks like? Thanks!

 

I've never heard of Pleistocene limestone gravel layer,  there is Pleistocene sediment in South Sulfur river,  and Quaternary deposits along Trinity as mentioned,  and they overlie the Ozan formation.  All the bones I have found in QT have been subfossils. 

[JohnJ]

4 hours ago, fossil_lover_2277 said:

Texas has a lot of Pleistocene bones present in the southeast portion of the state north through Dallas. From reading, they are found in a limestone gravel bed layer. 

 

Just curious where you read this?  

 

Most "Pleistocene bones" in Texas come from the Pleistocene terrace deposits previously mentioned.  The "look" will vary based on the local bedrock, gravels, silt and sand.

[fossil_lover_2277]

4 hours ago, JohnJ said:

 

Just curious where you read this?  

 

Most "Pleistocene bones" in Texas come from the Pleistocene terrace deposits previously mentioned.  The "look" will vary based on the local bedrock, gravels, silt and sand.

A lot of places. The stratigraphic maps show that the Pleistocene deposits stretch from the gulf coast up through Dallas, generally along rivers, but become less dense the farther north you go. Yes near the coast there’s the Beaumont formation that’s a lot of mud, but up closer to Dallas there were a lot of fluvial deposits (obviously because of the rivers) including gravel beds. A lot of people on here as well as other places said they found them in gravel beds.

 

One place that mentions a limestone gravel bed is here: https://mrdata.usgs.gov/geology/state/sgmc-unit.php?unit=TXQhg%3B0

 

I know some of the underlying Cretaceous formations have limestone, perhaps that’s where it comes from.

 

Another place it’s mentioned, here:

https://www.baylor.edu/geosciences/doc.php/287347.pdf

Edited February 17, 2022 by fossil_lover_2277

[Creek - Don]

I have found numerous bison bones right above the gravel level here in the Dallas area.    This shows gravel layer right above the Austin Chalk layer  Mostly broken limestone rocks mixed with dirt.  They are not fossils, but mostly contain bone material. 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Creek - Don

[JohnJ]

4 hours ago, fossil_lover_2277 said:

A lot of places.

 

I was mainly curious why you initially stated "limestone gravel".  The predominance of limestone in the gravels varies considerably depending on the local bedrock.  Pleistocene bones occur in many Texas gravel deposits that have no limestone gravel.  You just need to spend time in the field at various places across the state to see the differences.  

[Brandy Cole]

I think where I'm at in southeast Texas on the Brazos, Pleistocene fossils typically wash out from the exposures where Lissie gravel sits unconformably on Beaumont clay along the river bank.  I find the fossils in gravel sandbars in the river bed. But when I've found items with matrix attached, it's been sandstone, not limestone. 

 

I've included a picture representative of the sandy gravel with a partial humerus in situ.  When I got the humerus home and washed it up, it was a dark reddish brown and extremely heavily mineralized.  I've found some items that are questionably mineralized, but the majority I've found are heavy and dark like the one below.

 

[fossil_lover_2277]

46 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

 

I was mainly curious why you initially stated "limestone gravel".  The predominance of limestone in the gravels varies considerably depending on the local bedrock.  Pleistocene bones occur in many Texas gravel deposits that have no limestone gravel.  You just need to spend time in the field at various places across the state to see the differences.  

Gotcha. The two links in my previous comment are two places I read “limestone gravel beds”

[JohnJ]

2 minutes ago, fossil_lover_2277 said:

Gotcha. The two links in my previous comment are two places I read “limestone gravel beds”

 

The screenshot reference also mentions other localities with an "absence of the carbonate gravel suite".  Again, the composition of Pleistocene gravels in Texas will look different depending on their location.  You can find them where they are mapped and not mapped.  

[fossil_lover_2277]

40 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

 

The screenshot reference also mentions other localities with an "absence of the carbonate gravel suite".  Again, the composition of Pleistocene gravels in Texas will look different depending on their location.  You can find them where they are mapped and not mapped.  

Gotcha yea I was more referring to the northern part of the state away from the gulf coast, closer to Dallas where the deposits overly the Cretaceous limestones. But I’m sure other stuff can be mixed in too, limestone just predominates because of the underlying Cretaceous. Further south probably less and less of the gravel is limestone.

Edited February 17, 2022 by fossil_lover_2277

[fossilus]

16 hours ago, fossil_lover_2277 said:

 Do these bones tend to be subfossils or bone that has undergone extensive mineralization? I’m curious, trying to find online if anyone has managed to extract ancient DNA from Texas bones. Much more likely from subfossils.

 

I've always thought that the extraction of DNA was from fossils in cooler climes. Doesn't the heat from the southern coastal areas degrade DNA?  It seems like I've never heard of DNA extracted whether it be Florida, the Carolinas, or Texas.

[fossil_lover_2277]

52 minutes ago, fossilus said:

 

I've always thought that the extraction of DNA was from fossils in cooler climes. Doesn't the heat from the southern coastal areas degrade DNA?  It seems like I've never heard of DNA extracted whether it be Florida, the Carolinas, or Texas.

No, it’s been done from temperate and even tropical climates. But tropical is the exception, and yes by far the best specimens are from permafrost, then cave, depositional settings. But there’s an example of a Pleistocene armadillo from Florida that Beth Shapiro’s group I believe got dna out of.

Edited February 17, 2022 by fossil_lover_2277

[fossil_lover_2277]

On 2/17/2022 at 9:26 AM, Creek - Don said:

I have found numerous bison bones right above the gravel level here in the Dallas area.    This shows gravel layer right above the Austin Chalk layer  Mostly broken limestone rocks mixed with dirt.  They are not fossils, but mostly contain bone material. 

Hi Don, it’s been a while, but I have a question on this response. You mention the numerous bison bones (I assume Holocene) you find in the Dallas area just above the gravel (I assume Pleistocene) layer. Have you also found any bones in this gravel layer beneath the bison bone layer? If so, how do those bones compare against the younger overlying bison bones?

Edited February 27, 2022 by fossil_lover_2277

[Creek - Don]

Hi,  there are no bones below the gravel layer.   Most of the bones are Pleistocene in nature.   Also, other than bison, I didn't see any other animals.  I'm sure there are other bones above and below  the gravel layer in other parts of the state, but not in the Dallas area.   I've searched just about every creek in the area.  I hope that helps.  

Edited February 28, 2022 by Creek - Don

[Creek - Don]

Here are the Pleistocene bison bones I've found in the  Dallas area.   I did actually found deer vert on 2nd from last picture at the gravel layer.  

 

Deer vert. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Creek - Don

[fossil_lover_2277]

On 2/27/2022 at 6:23 PM, Creek - Don said:

Hi,  there are no bones below the gravel layer.   Most of the bones are Pleistocene in nature.   Also, other than bison, I didn't see any other animals.  I'm sure there are other bones above and below  the gravel layer in other parts of the state, but not in the Dallas area.   I've searched just about every creek in the area.  I hope that helps.  

 

On 2/28/2022 at 4:26 PM, Creek - Don said:

Here are the Pleistocene bison bones I've found in the  Dallas area.   I did actually found deer vert on 2nd from last picture at the gravel layer.  

 

Deer vert. 

Thank you!!! Sorry, I didn’t see the notification for your response to this for some reason until just now. That’s very helpful. I’m looking to dig some out for some research I’m doing. Doesn’t need to be anything amazing, a broken piece of rib, vertebra, or long bone will do. I assume the bison bones could be either Pleistocene or Holocene (either work for my research) and the only way to tell is by carbon dating? Also, are they fairly plentiful above that gravel layer in Dallas?  These sort of bones are precisely what I need. Btw nice finds though.

Edited March 2, 2022 by fossil_lover_2277

[Creek - Don]

Just now, fossil_lover_2277 said:

 

Thank you!!! Sorry, I didn’t see the notification for your response to this for some reason until just now. That’s very helpful. I’m looking to collect some for some research I’m doing. I assume the bison bones could be either Pleistocene or Holocene and the only way to tell us by carbon dating? Also, are they fairly plentiful above that gravel layer in Dallas? Nice finds though.

I believe these bones are thousands of years old.  When the  bones are buried closest to the limestone rocks, it tends to better preserve, but soils above the bones are acidic so they tend to dissolve easily, which is the reason I can't find any bones above the gravel layer.   Most of the soil overlying top of the bones are between 5 to 10 feet.  To lie buried under that much of soil in Texas may taken very long time.  Some of these bones could yield some DNA or even carbon date them, but may cost several hundred dollars.   You  will have to spend some time looking for them.   There are dozens of creeks in the Dallas area and it may yield one bone after spending 3 to 4 hours.  You  will also have to walk knee deep water, slippery mud, and put up with the heat during the summer.  These were all collected in the summer  of 2019.  

[fossil_lover_2277]

18 minutes ago, Creek - Don said:

I believe these bones are thousands of years old.  When the  bones are buried closest to the limestone rocks, it tends to better preserve, but soils above the bones are acidic so they tend to dissolve easily, which is the reason I can't find any bones above the gravel layer.   Most of the soil overlying top of the bones are between 5 to 10 feet.  To lie buried under that much of soil in Texas may taken very long time.  Some of these bones could yield some DNA or even carbon date them, but may cost several hundred dollars.   You  will have to spend some time looking for them.   There are dozens of creeks in the Dallas area and it may yield one bone after spending 3 to 4 hours.  You  will also have to walk knee deep water, slippery mud, and put up with the heat during the summer.  These were all collected in the summer  of 2019.  

Thank you, yes this is exactly what I’m looking for. And yes, I’m well acquainted with the difficulties of creek hunting in the South. This has helped me a ton, I cannot thank you enough. One last question, are you picking random spots and digging for the bones blind, or are the bones you find already exposed to the surface to some degree, and you just dig the out once you see them?

[Creek - Don]

1 minute ago, fossil_lover_2277 said:

Thank you, yes this is exactly what I’m looking for. And yes, I’m well acquainted with the difficulties of creek hunting in the South. This has helped me a ton, I cannot thank you enough. One last question, are you picking random spots and digging for the bones blind, or are the bones you find already exposed to the surface to some degree, and you just dig the out once you see them?

Random. They are exposed on the  creek banks and tend stand out due to their shape and color.  Sediments are soft so they can be easily extracted.