Are there any raptors in kem kem?

[Nanotyrannus35]

Are there any raptors in the Kem Kem formation? I've seen that I think just about all of the teeth listed as raptor are actually abelisaur. On Wikipedia, it said that Deltadromeus isn't a raptor. I'm confused because I had thought that it was.

[Troodon]

We still have a lot to learn about the dinosaur assemblage in the Kem Kem Group, little is really known.  There is some evidence that Dromaeosaurids " raptors" exist but to date no research article has yet been published to describe one.  We need new discoveries and further research to make that call. 

A lot of the teeth sold are not described properly so those are not an accurate indication of the assemblage.  Sellers unfortunately use "raptor" more as a sales pitch and probably could not identify a Dromaeosaurid tooth if it was in front of them.

 

 

[Troodon]

Just a point on Deltadromeus.  Its classification has been a point of discussion over the years but as more information emerged its currently  positioned as Noasaurid, but never been considered a raptor.  This could change with more research and the discovery of a skull so who knows what the future brings.

[sseth]

Raptor is an interesting term.  There is no group of dinosaurs identified as "Raptor" but several classifications have been nicknamed raptor.  Raptor is not a scientific term when it comes to dinosauria.   Dromaeosaurids are often called raptors but the term is also often applied to small non-avian dinosaurs of the Cretaceous from various parts of the world including Kem Kem.  This term is used because of these dinosaurs resemblance to modern "Raptors", or birds of prey.  This is the origin of the word.

 

Much of the scientific community would insist that there are no "raptor" dinosaurs, others would argue that they are only dromaeosaurids, while yet others will argue that it is a much broader term to describe smaller cretaceous dinosaurs from around the world and include dromaeosaurids, critters like Paronychodon, Troodon, Deltadromaeus, etc...  One paleontologist I work with very closely gets very upset when the term is used at all.  He blames Jurassic Park for the term being used in our vernacular.  I always make sure to use it around him just to rub hm the wrong way.  I know I have my own opinions of its appropriate use.

 

Most of the diggers in the Hell Creek Formation I work with refer to many of these as raptors, as their slang for a much larger group of small therapods.  It is an interesting term and is one that is probably left up to the individual do decide for themselves, being a nickname rather than a scientific term.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

Seth

[Nanotyrannus35]

Yeah, when I was writing the topic, the two groups that I thought of were maniraptorans and dromaeosaurs, and I'd forgotten whether dromaeosaurs was the term I was looking for, so I'd just put raptors. 

[sseth]

Just now, Nanotyrannus35 said:

Yeah, when I was writing the topic, the two groups that I thought of were maniraptorans and dromaeosaurs, and I'd forgotten whether dromaeosaurs was the term I was looking for, so I'd just put raptors. 

I understand.  There are some very convincing teeth from Kem Kem that appear to be dromaeosaurid but nothing official at this point.

 

[Kikokuryu]

4 hours ago, Troodon said:

Sellers unfortunately use "raptor" more as a sales pitch and probably could not identify a Dromaeosaurid tooth if it was in front of them.

Which does make it kind of amusing when they do sell them as abelisaurid teeth, but 1-2 out of a batch of 20-30 aren't abelisaurid.

 

When you do see abelisaurid teeth pop up, usually a dozen at a time, it is worth taking a quick look. A real dromaeosaurid-like tooth would stick out like a sore thumb next to an abelisaurid. Most of the non-abelisaurids will probably turn out to just be small carcharodontosaurid, theropod indet., or even ziphodont crocs.

[Troodon]

13 hours ago, Kikokuryu said:

Which does make it kind of amusing when they do sell them as abelisaurid teeth, but 1-2 out of a batch of 20-30 aren't abelisaurid.

 

When you do see abelisaurid teeth pop up, usually a dozen at a time, it is worth taking a quick look. A real dromaeosaurid-like tooth would stick out like a sore thumb next to an abelisaurid. Most of the non-abelisaurids will probably turn out to just be small carcharodontosaurid, theropod indet., or even ziphodont 

 

Very common occurrence.  I doubt many sellers would be able to differentiate teeth between those taxons

[Nanotyrannus35]

Kind of interesting, a seller on our favorite auction site posted a 1.14 inch kem kem theropod tooth that isn't carcharodontosaurus and labeled it deltadromeus or maybe an abelisaur. Just wondering what you think about that.

[Troodon]

43 minutes ago, Nanotyrannus35 said:

Kind of interesting, a seller on our favorite auction site posted a 1.14 inch kem kem theropod tooth that isn't carcharodontosaurus and labeled it deltadromeus or maybe an abelisaur. Just wondering what you think about that.

Pictures

[Nanotyrannus35]

Just now, Troodon said:

Pictures

Here they are

[Troodon]

Thats an Abelisaurid tooth.  Just dont trust anything you see sold from the KK.

[Nanotyrannus35]

It seems large for an abelisaur tooth. Most of the abelisaur teeth I see for sale are under a half inch. How big do they get?

[Troodon]

1 hour ago, Nanotyrannus35 said:

It seems large for an abelisaur tooth. Most of the abelisaur teeth I see for sale are under a half inch. How big doget?

 

Well its Abelisaurid, not abelisaur.

When it gets described will get a better understanding of what we are dealing with.  A good number of paleontologists believe the maxilla UCPCPV10 is identical to Nigers Rugops so thats where this tooth morphology is probably heading. 

From Ibrahim et al paper:

Here are some in my collection, they can get quite large.

 

 

 

[LordTrilobite]

No skull of Deltadromeus has been found so far. And as has been said it has never been any type of raptor/dromaeosaur. Since it's likely a Noasaur we don't even know if it had teeth at all.


But yes there are some clues that dromaeosaurs might be present in the Kem Kem Group. Not just teeth but also some bones that seem to fit. Like this one, which seems to fit humeri of other dromaeosaurs.

[Nanotyrannus35]

Found this interesting paper about the kem kem fauna.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/801e/dbea70fc5b7a8cdcb86c7f4dd6a646197a38.pdf?_ga=2.188309672.1483310131.1646152944-865655291.1639065576

[Troodon]

That paper came out a couple of years ago and has been referenced several times and is indeed a good reference.   Please be mindful that the opinions in that article are those of the authors and may not necessarily be shared by other paleontologists especially with dinosaur.