Very small Carpal/Tarsal

[Shellseeker]

Back in February, I found some Carpal bones which turned out to be lunars from Florida camel/llama.  There were about 32 mm in length.  http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/121276-tarsal-carpal/&tab=comments#comment-1329883

 

Now I have a newly found another carpal. It is 25% shorter and not as massive. Note the 3 articulation points.  I believe these are only present in Scaphoid and Scapholunar (merge of Scaphoid & Lunar) bones.  I would be more comfortable with confirmation of the tpe of carpal. I sent a note to Richard Hulbert at University of Florida. His response did not make me comfortable that we would identify the mammal.

Quote

.....I do not recognize the carpal/tarsal element, so it is not from something common. Richard

 

I have looked at the Scaphoids of a number of candidate mammals.  It does not seem to match felid or canis. It does not match horse or camel/llama.  It does not seem to match marine mammal.  I am definitely looking for help and just hope someone on the forum ( @Harry Pristis @digit, @PODIGGER @Sacha) has seen something similar). 

Even if you can not ID the mammal,  please give me pointers

1) Which Carpal is this bone?

2) What is the size of the mammal ?  I am thinking 100 pounds based on Carpal Size.

3) Do you have Carpals or Tarpals in this size range 20 - 25 mm ?

4) Every mammal has carpals.. I though and checked Dolphins,  rare cats,  wolves, coyote... Do you have additional suggestions on fossil mammala of florida I should check.  I am wondering about Racoon.  I also thought about human, but they are different and bigger than this find.

 

 

[Harry Pristis]

I can't help you with the individual bones, but maybe you'll recognize something in these line drawings:

 

 

[Brandy Cole]

4) peccary?

[Brandy Cole]

How does it compare to tapir lunate or unciform here?

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/FIG-URE-2-Landmark-placement-on-seven-bones-of-the-tapir-carpus-Proximal-row-a-d-and_fig2_318421774

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Harry Pristis said:

I can't help you with the individual bones, but maybe you'll recognize something in these line drawings

Harry,  thanks...

It sort of leads me to an epiphany, Certainly there are carpals in my hunting grounds that are as small and smaller than this one. Deer would have small tarsals,  I occasionally find deer astragalus , both fossil and modern,  and in Miocene and Blancan locations , I find carpals from tridactyl horses,  mostly magnums.  Because they come from 100 pound mammals, there size relates to the size of what I have found here.

So,  I can look at the Deer and the Tridactly carpals, and so far they do not match the "look" of my 1st photo above... By just reading , I saw a comment from Prehistoric Florida to you on the subject of Carpals and he said something about Capromeryx, I wonder what its scaphoid looked like...  If a picture exists, I'll find it... 

 

 

[Shellseeker]

44 minutes ago, Brandy Cole said:

4) peccary?

 

39 minutes ago, Brandy Cole said:

How does it compare to tapir lunate or unciform here?

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/FIG-URE-2-Landmark-placement-on-seven-bones-of-the-tapir-carpus-Proximal-row-a-d-and_fig2_318421774

Well, 2nd 1st... On your link,  I liked the shape of the peccary cuneiform:

but I am trying to find these 5 ? connection facets (blue) also, I am starting a journey,  learning along the way.

 

 

Peccary Carpals fit Hulberts definition of "not common",  I'll let you know when I find some/any peccary carpals (hopefully a scaphoid).   Thanks Jack

Edited April 11, 2022 by Shellseeker
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