Temporary Revocable Permit required for fossil hunting in state forests?

[Trilobite Enthusiast]

I have located a good prospective area to fossil hunt, and it is in a state forest in New York State.

 

To ensure that fossil hunting is allowed, I checked the website: https://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/44115.html

 

The second rule states: "Groups of more than 20 people and certain activities such as weddings, filmmaking, research, etc., are required to get a Temporary Revocable Permit (TRP) from the DEC land manager. Please allow a few days for a TRP to be reviewed and approved after submission."

 

Clicking on the "certain activities" link and scrolling through, I found this under the "Non-Routine TRPs may be issued for the following activities" section:

"collection of materials, including scientific specimens, historic artifacts, living materials, minerals, or wildlife on State Land ..."

 

Does this mean I need to go through the whole application process of getting a Non-Routine TRP from the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation?

If so, that requires liability insurance, which I know nothing about:

 

3. Non-Routine TRPs
For Non-Routine TRP applications, the Regional Manager or designee shall process the minimum non-refundable application fee and/or an additional administrative fee if applicable, determine if the TRP application can be approved and so indicate with signature on the application.

If the Regional Manager recommends approval, he or she will forward the signed application package, draft TRP, and location map to the respective Division or Bureau designee in Central Office for review.

1. If the TRP application package and draft TRP are approved by Central Office, both shall be returned to the Regional Manager who will then issue a Non-Routine TRP to the permittee with a copy of all relevant documents; and shall forward a copy of the TRP and location map to the Regional Ranger Captain in charge of the area where the TRP will be effective;
2. If the TRP application package and draft TRP are denied by Central Office, the appropriate Division or Bureau designee in Central Office will so indicate on the application, provide the reasons for denial, sign and return application to the Regional Manager, after which the Regional Manager will than notify the applicant by letter explaining the reasons for the denial.

4. Proof of liability insurance and performance security (if applicable) for Routine and Non-Routine TRPs must be received at least five (5) business days prior to the onset of the activity approved by the TRP. TRPs requiring such insurance or security shall not be effective until proof of such insurance or security has been received by the Department

5. Routine and Non-Routine TRP permittees shall be directed to notify the Regional Manager at least one (1) week prior to commencing an activity permitted under a TRP and upon completion of such activity, except for those activities scheduled to occur on a specific date.

 

Has anyone gone through this long, arduous process to go fossil hunting on state land who is willing to assist me in this?

 

[Plantgrogu]

Hi there! I know a little bit about the TRPs but for different purposes of humanely trapping lost domestic pets. Are you planning on going alone or with a very small group? If you're just heading out by yourself and depending on the forest, I recommend calling the district DEC office to make a general inquiry about fossil collecting in NYS owned forests that are managed by the DEC. If fossil hunting is allowed (most likely not allowed to do any major rock breaking or disturbing of any habitat or outcrops) Here in the Finger Lakes region, many areas along the lakes are jointly owned/managed by the Finger Lakes Trust and the DEC. For those lands, fossil hunting is forbidden. Collecting along any streams that are stocked with fish and managed by the DEC are also off limits and removal of anything or disturbing the banks or stream in any way is against the law.  They may have similar laws against disturbing wild areas for hobby collectors. 

[Trilobite Enthusiast]

3 minutes ago, Plantgrogu said:

Hi there! I know a little bit about the TRPs but for different purposes of humanely trapping lost domestic pets. Are you planning on going alone or with a very small group? If you're just heading out by yourself and depending on the forest, I recommend calling the district DEC office to make a general inquiry about fossil collecting in NYS owned forests that are managed by the DEC. If fossil hunting is allowed (most likely not allowed to do any major rock breaking or disturbing of any habitat or outcrops) Here in the Finger Lakes region, many areas along the lakes are jointly owned/managed by the Finger Lakes Trust and the DEC. For those lands, fossil hunting is forbidden. Collecting along any streams that are stocked with fish and managed by the DEC are also off limits and removal of anything or disturbing the banks or stream in any way is against the law.  They may have similar laws against disturbing wild areas for hobby collectors. 

I intend to go alone. I have emailed a DEC representative asking about fossil hunting.

I am planning on looking through a gorge. According to google earth imagery, there are lots of rocks covering the sides of the gorge.

Do you think fossil hunting there would count as disturbing the banks or stream?

 

Also, do you know what liability insurance is, how much it costs, and who I could purchase it from?

[Plantgrogu]

1 minute ago, Trilobite Enthusiast said:

I intend to go alone. I have emailed a DEC representative asking about fossil hunting.

I am planning on looking through a gorge. According to google earth imagery, there are lots of rocks covering the sides of the gorge.

Do you think fossil hunting there would count as disturbing the banks or stream?

 

Also, do you know what liability insurance is, how much it costs, and who I could purchase it from?

I tend to think the liability insurance is for large groups and events. If the gorge is within a park and managed by the DEC and Forest Rangers, disturbing the gorge walls is most likely banned. The rangers work every year to make sure the gorge walls along hiking trails are stable and remove unstable stone & shale before opening the trails to the public. I've been searching extensively online for sites that are open to us but am finding that more and more have been closed to fossil hunting over the years. I'm limited to collecting along lake shores of the beaches and in washout gullies that are not stocked with fish where fish habitat is not protected. Visiting and hiking in the NYS owned forests does not require liability insurance but I'll bet that digging, breaking up stones, and disturbing gorge walls in NYS owned land will not be permitted.

[Fossildude19]

Any insurance company should be able to answer your insurance questions.

Fossil hunting would likely not be allowed at state parks, as it would probably count as disturbing streams or stream banks.

Best to check with the DEC.

[Trilobite Enthusiast]

1 minute ago, Plantgrogu said:

I tend to think the liability insurance is for large groups and events. If the gorge is within a park and managed by the DEC and Forest Rangers, disturbing the gorge walls is most likely banned. The rangers work every year to make sure the gorge walls along hiking trails are stable and remove unstable stone & shale before opening the trails to the public. I've been searching extensively online for sites that are open to us but am finding that more and more have been closed to fossil hunting over the years. I'm limited to collecting along lake shores of the beaches and in washout gullies that are not stocked with fish where fish habitat is not protected. Visiting and hiking in the NYS owned forests does not require liability insurance but I'll bet that digging, breaking up stones, and disturbing gorge walls in NYS owned land will not be permitted.

 

Well, that's a great shame. I was referring to opening rocks that had already fallen off the gorge walls, but if breaking up stones is also banned, then that option is removed too.

Earlier today, I was excited because I thought it was a forest run by the BLM, which has much less stringent rules. Sadly almost all large forests in NYS are run by the DEC instead of the BLM.

 

Ironically, it seems like the best way to find fossil hunting sites is by locating private land owners, so I'll try doing that!

 

1 minute ago, Fossildude19 said:

Any insurance company should be able to answer your insurance questions.

Fossil hunting would likely not be allowed at state parks, as it would probably count as disturbing streams or stream banks.

Best to check with the DEC.

 

It's a state forest, not a state park, and since state forests are open to things like hunting, fishing, camping, etc, I thought they might be open to fossil hunting too.

I also figured that this post 

 

would be from around that same region.

 

 

 

 

[Plantgrogu]

The only thing that I am 100% certain is off limits is protected habitats and certain lands under the control of the Finger Lakes Trust. I'm in Region 7 & 8 and am also curious to have a definite answer. I'll call my DEC office. They're really helpful folks. 

[PODIGGER]

Best way to locate fossil hunting sites is to get out of New York! Come to Florida!

[Trilobite Enthusiast]

12 hours ago, PODIGGER said:

Best way to locate fossil hunting sites is to get out of New York! Come to Florida!

 

You may be right. I got a response from the DEC:

 

"Your interpretation of the TRP Policy is correct. Any collection of specimens from State Lands requires a Non-Routine TRP. Additionally, the State Museum must also sign off on the TRP. This is usually limited to museums and educational purposes and not private individuals. Thanks"

 

Hopefully "state lands" doesn't also include road cuts, but I would no longer bet on it.

[FranzBernhard]

For a central European, its unbelievable how restricted fossil hunting in the US in general is. Fishing, hunting, camping, motorbiking - no problem. But fossil collecting - no, no!

Funny enough, in central Europe: Fishing, hunting, camping, motorbiking - No, no for the general public. Fossil collecting: ok! (with the exception of Italy!)

Franz Bernhard

[Joe_17]

5 hours ago, FranzBernhard said:

For a central European, its unbelievable how restricted fossil hunting in the US in general is. Fishing, hunting, camping, motorbiking - no problem. But fossil collecting - no, no!

Funny enough, in central Europe: Fishing, hunting, camping, motorbiking - No, no for the general public. Fossil collecting: ok! (with the exception of Italy!)

Franz Bernhard

That also depends on what state you're in and what part of the state you're in . What's ok in one state isn't ok in another. 

[DPS Ammonite]

@FranzBernhard  In the western USA there is a lot of federal land that you can collect limited amounts of common invertebrate fossils. You cannot sell or trade the fossils. Most of the land is BLM and Forest Service. The eastern USA has much less federal land; see map.
 

In Austria, can you sell or trade your finds? Are you allowed to collect vertebrates? Do you have to report significant finds to the government?

 

https://www.bikepackingroots.org/public-lands-history.html

 

 

[FranzBernhard]

2 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

In Austria, can you sell or trade your finds? Are you allowed to collect vertebrates? Do you have to report significant finds to the government?

Yes*. Yes. Yes** (to museums).

 

We got a new law in Styria in 2017, see §20:

Styrian nature protection law (external site, in German)

Automatic translation of §20:

§20

Protection of minerals and fossils

(1) Scientifically significant minerals and fossils may not be willfully destroyed or damaged.

(2) The use of machinery, explosives or propellants or other chemical aids for collecting minerals or fossils is prohibited.

(3) Exceptions to the prohibition in paragraph 2 may only be approved by the state government for scientific or teaching purposes.

 

There are a few small "Fossil Natural Monuments" in Styria, where collecting is strictly forbidden. But just take the next creek, its much better than the monument itself...

 

And here is a short general overwiew from 1989, made by a law person:

Legality of Collecting Minerals (and Fossils) in Austria (pdf, external site, in German)

 

*At least on a small, hobbiest scale. If done commercially, you will need some kind of permit from the land owner. But than, many other aspects are also important and its getting difficult. 

 

**I don´t know if my discoveries of last year were important, but I informed the museum in Vienna (NHM) and the museum in Graz (UMJ). And the Austrian

Geological Survey, too.

 

Franz Bernhard

Edited April 15, 2022 by FranzBernhard

[Plantgrogu]

On 4/14/2022 at 10:20 AM, Trilobite Enthusiast said:

You may be right. I got a response from the DEC:

As we suspected. Such a bummer.

[Plantgrogu]

On 4/13/2022 at 5:29 PM, Trilobite Enthusiast said:

Sadly almost all large forests in NYS are run by the DEC instead of the BLM.

Yes, the DEC (Department of Environmental Conservations) only exist in NYS. In other states, their counter parts will be some form of Fish and Game or Fish and Wildlife agency.  I've read the governing agency could be the EPA as it is in Florida. The BLM does manage tribal lands in NY and across the US. It can be a real puzzle tracking down what agency manages what lands, depending on which state and designated lands you're looking to explore.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Plantgrogu
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