"Deinotherium Tusk" I bought a while back

[GarethGP]

So I bought this end point of a supposed deinotherium tusk from a man in France a while back. Before I purchased I asked how he knew it was deinotherium and not mammoth etc. he gave me an explanation in poor english I didn't quite understand and then said he got it from a palaeontologist in France who's name he quoted (I checked, real palaeontologist). I've attached some pics. What do you think? It's definitely very old ivory of some kind. Thoughts? It's a little over 3 inches long. 

[Fossildude19]

Looks awfully dense to be a tusk.  

 

[GarethGP]

It's not as dense as it looks in my crummy pictures. It's rather light and layered. Also, if you look at the chipped area, there are very faint lines under the chip that remind me of ivory. I could be wrong but it looks similar to the other deinotherium tusks I've seen online in terms of density. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by GarethGP

[GarethGP]

That chipped area looks like chipped cementum and has the same lines running underneath as in this mammoth tusk pictured with part of its cementum removed

[GarethGP]

For anyone interested, I contacted a deinotherium expert and he said that while it's challenging to tell with just the pictures provided, he believes it is in fact a deinotherium specimen! 

[siteseer]

I assume there is some kind of preservative coating the whole thing.  If you clean off the cut end (acetone, a mild solvent would likely clean it) and then send a photo to the expert you contacted, you would get a more concrete answer.  I'd look for a second opinion too.

 

I'm not a deinothere expert by any measure but I've seen some teeth (Middle Miocene of Germany) and that tusk tip seems large for what I've seen.

 

What info did you get with the specimen (species, age/locality)?

[GarethGP]

Just that it was from France. The deinotherium expert sent me a picture of a deinotherium tusk that is similarly blunted and large like mine, so he seems pretty sure. Can I ask, what would cleaning the cut end show that would differentiate between deinotherium and some other elephant cousin? I've started cleaning that end with acetone and there's white coming through now.

 

On 5/16/2022 at 7:42 PM, siteseer said:

I assume there is some kind of preservative coating the whole thing.  If you clean off the cut end (acetone, a mild solvent would likely clean it) and then send a photo to the expert you contacted, you would get a more concrete answer.  I'd look for a second opinion too.

 

I'm not a deinothere expert by any measure but I've seen some teeth (Middle Miocene of Germany) and that tusk tip seems large for what I've seen.

 

What info did you get with the specimen (species, age/locality)?

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by GarethGP

[GarethGP]

I just found a paper on deinotherium and this quote sounds an awful lot like my tusk fragment:

 

"The deinothere tusks consist of massive dentine. Their form in transverse section is oval rather than round, the longest axis being in anteroposterior direction. Often the tusk is also flattened on the medial side. The tusks are curved distally and caudally and often also laterally. The thickness diminishes from proximal to distal. In transverse section, the dentine has large, concentric rings. No criss-cross-like SCHREGER pattern (also called "engine-turning" or "guillochage", see SHOSHANI 1996: 15) of the dentine tubules has been described in European deinotheres. The lack of this pattern, which should be visible to the naked eye, can be used to identify the deinothere tusks. The only exception to this rule may be D. bozasi because the pattern has been reported once in the African D. bozasi (HARRIS 1983). The problem of the tusk variability is that it is hardly measurable. First, the inner side is not always flattened. Second, the curvature is almost impossible to measure. (One approach is GRÄF’s [1957] "Krummungslänge", the relation between length (a) and sagittal diameter (b) [a x 100/b]). Third, a lateral curvature is not always present; the tusks can also be only distally-posteriorly aligned. Fourth, the presence of wear facets on three possible sides (medial, posterior, or at the tips) and their absence in some specimens points to a still unknown and perhaps variable function."

 

1) I'm definitely not seeing any schreger lines on the cut side of this tusk, so that rules out mammoth and elephant

2) This thing is definitely ivory of some kind

3) This tusk has a flat side

4) it is roughly oval and not round

5) This one doesn't appear to have wear facets. The one I was showed by the expert didn't either.

6) I'm somewhat seeing large concentric rings in the dentin.

Edited May 18, 2022 by GarethGP

[siteseer]

As you've already learned, cleaning that end would allow you to see the rings and any other pattern.  It looked like a tusk end already and it sounds like you might might be seeing enough to confirm the ID if not rule out mastodon or mammoth.  It's a shame your source doesn't have an idea of locality for such an unusual specimen.  Deinothere teeth are rare enough but I'm not sure I've seen a tusk piece before.

 

I don't know what that stuff all over the tusk is but you might want to find out what the best preservative would be for a tusk (Butvar or Paraloid?) and apply it to the cut end after you clean it.  It would protect it from cracking over time.

[GarethGP]

According to the seller it is from a collection of an old paleontologist who (I looked up) is an international fossil retailer. The seller also sold one other deinotherium tusk point and it looked exactly like a deinotherium specimen - so the seller does have some idea of what he's talking about. Other than that the only information I have is that it's from the Burdigalian time period. It is a very unusual specimen and I suppose I'm lucky to have it. I re-contacted the expert and he reaffirmed that morphologically it looks deinotherium. So that's confirmed it enough for me to say it's probably deinotherium. Thank you for the suggestion, I'll apply some preservative to the end. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by GarethGP

[JohnJ]

53 minutes ago, GarethGP said:

So that's confirmed it enough for me to say it's probably deinotherium. Thank you for the suggestion, I'll apply some preservative to the end. 

 

Could you indulge the membership with additional photos since the acetone application?

[GarethGP]

23 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

 

Could you indulge the membership with additional photos since the acetone application?

I can later this evening, but there's not much to see. Just white with some brown spots leftover I couldn't get off. Definitely no Schreger lines to be seen. 

[GarethGP]

38 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

 

Could you indulge the membership with additional photos since the acetone application?

Here is what I managed to get off. Underneath were some brown spots that were part of the tusk and appear curved. I highlighted them in the second picture, wondering if they mark rings or if I'm just seeing things. Sorry I can't get better quality photos. I also added the picture of the deinotherium tusk with blunted end the expert sent me. 

[JohnJ]

18 minutes ago, GarethGP said:

Sorry I can't get better quality photos.

Prop the tusk up securely with something other than your hand and try backing off a little; then crop the photo. 

[GarethGP]

This is unfortunately as clear as my crappy phone camera will allow.

[GarethGP]

Give me one second and I'll use another camera

[GarethGP]

Here you go, I used my wife's phone.

[JohnJ]

3 minutes ago, GarethGP said:

Here you go, I used my wife's phone.

Much better!

 

It is curious that most of the texture appears uni-directional, with the exception of a couple of patches.  Did the acetone reveal any details elsewhere?

[GarethGP]

29 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

Much better!

 

It is curious that most of the texture appears uni-directional, with the exception of a couple of patches.  Did the acetone reveal any details elsewhere?

No, whatever you see pictured is what I rubbed acetone on. Do you have any thoughts on the specimen? Would you agree that it is at least a tusk of some sort? Everything I've read about mammoth tusks says there should be very obvious visible to the naked eye crisscrossing Schreger lines, while with deinotherium the dentin should be very dense with not a lot of detail. Though I've struggled to find any transverse section pictures of a deinotherium tusk online. I did manage to find one and if I relocate it I'll post it here. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by GarethGP

[JohnJ]

On 5/16/2022 at 9:44 AM, GarethGP said:

it's challenging to tell with just the pictures provided

 

Based on the photos in this thread, only the one with the "chipped" edge even hints at a tusk.  If it was mine, I would remove the obscuring 'preservative' to be able to display an identifiable tusk.  Thorough cleaning of the chipped area and the cut end might provide the bona fides you seek.

[GarethGP]

3 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

 

Based on the photos in this thread, only the one with the "chipped" edge even hints at a tusk.  If it was mine, I would remove the obscuring 'preservative' to be able to display an identifiable tusk.  Thorough cleaning of the chipped area and the cut end might provide the bona fides you seek.

I'll run some acetone on the chip and try and clean the cut end better this evening. I'll post more pics later. Thank you for your help and interest. 

 

Also, if this was your tusk you'd remove the preservative from the entire thing? And then put a different preservative on it?

[JohnJ]

Just now, GarethGP said:

Also, if this was your tusk you'd remove the preservative from the entire thing? And then put a different preservative on it?

 

Yes.  As it is, you have to convince yourself and others it is a tusk.

[GarethGP]

2 hours ago, JohnJ said:

 

Yes.  As it is, you have to convince yourself and others it is a tusk.

Well I almost completely cleaned one side. Definitely looking more tusk-like now. I'm noticing at least 4 distinct layers. What do you think?

 

 

Edited May 19, 2022 by GarethGP

[GarethGP]

And just before going to sleep I cleaned another side expecting more of the checkerboard pattern blue-grey-brown colour and instead got brown. I'm so confused by this thing lol. This side definitely looks more traditionally tusk-like I think - enough that I'm confident that this is a tusk of some kind. I'd love anyone's thoughts. I also fully expect the other two sides to also be brown with the same pattern from what I can see. That makes one odd side pictured above, and three of the same brown colour. I'm wondering if that one side is enamel, as I understand proboscideans sometimes had an enamel cap at the ends of their tusks that wore down as they aged if I'm not mistaken. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by GarethGP

[Kiros]

Looks like the tip has been reconstructed?