"Deinotherium Tusk" I bought a while back

[GarethGP]

4 hours ago, Kiros said:

Looks like the tip has been reconstructed? 

It could be, but it doesn't strike me as one. It's the same exact material you see exposed in the cut end which is part of the piece itself. The material is hard, slightly rough to the touch, and doesn't degrade at all in acetone. How would I be able to test for reconstruction?

Edited May 19, 2022 by GarethGP

[JohnJ]

The cleaning revealed many more characteristics.  More images in natural light from various angles would be interesting too.

 

The 'patchwork' of colors is a little confusing.  It almost looks like chunks of tusk were mixed with glue or epoxy.  The areas that look like two different kinds of epoxy are marked.

 

 

 

 

[GarethGP]

I'm baffled by it too. Wondering if it's partially reconstructed at the tip and of it would be worth taking off the reconstructed bits if it is. I'll try more daylight pictures tomorrow.

 

Edit: you'd think though if this was some kind of glue or epoxy that the acetone would effect it. The acetone doesn't touch this stuff at all. I've tried scraping with a nail as well and it leaves no mark. Whatever it is is very hard, slightly grainy feeling and impervious to acetone. 

 

I really appreciate your interest in figuring this piece out. You've been awesome. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by GarethGP

[Troodon]

The tip does look reconstructed and if they used epoxy, acetone might not be very effective.

 @jpc Might have some clue.

[GarethGP]

If it is reconstructed, I'd like to find a way to remove it and just have all original material. 

[JohnJ]

Just now, GarethGP said:

If it is reconstructed, I'd like to find a way to remove it and just have all original material. 

It could be comprised of epoxy and oddly oriented chunks of tusk....

[GarethGP]

1 minute ago, JohnJ said:

It could be comprised of epoxy and oddly oriented chunks of tusk....

 

That would be unfortunate. I'm going to clean it more later and see if I can get a better picture of what I'm working with. 

[FranzBernhard]

1 hour ago, JohnJ said:

It could be comprised of epoxy and oddly oriented chunks of tusk....

Oh well, this day on TFF convinced me again to never buy a fossil. There is an incredible amount of art work out there, some quite old. This tusk is a "super-bummer".

Franz Bernhard 

[GarethGP]

4 minutes ago, FranzBernhard said:

Oh well, this day on TFF convinced me again to never buy a fossil. There is an incredible amount of art work out there, some quite old. This tusk is a "super-bummer".

Franz Bernhard 

I'm not really bummed out. I'm unhappy with the reproduction material, but there is still a lot of original tusk here, and the stuff that remains is quite beautiful. I'd pay what I payed just for the original material that is there. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by GarethGP

[GarethGP]

Some final thoughts on the tusk fragment. I believe everyone is correct and about 2/5 of it is reproduction. The back cut segment which is used to identify any schreger lines is mostly some kind of reproduction, but there are little bits of brown pictured below that are original material that do have small lines, but not the schreger lines typical of mammoth/mastodon/modern elephant tusks. The point of the tusk I believe is completely reconstructed and I was wondering if anyone knows of any way I can dissolve or remove it? I won't be removing the epoxy from the cut part or in the cracks as it looks structurally important, but the point of the tusk looks like none of it is original material so I'd really like to be rid of it and maybe there'll be more identifying marks underneath. Epoxy isn't doing anything to it. I've included some final pictures below. 

 

Back.

Sides. 

Pretty sure this is an enamel layer.

Edited May 19, 2022 by GarethGP

[JohnJ]

Some of the transition views between 'sides' would be nice to see.  Thanks for the extra photos.

[jpc]

if it is epoxy, acetone (or other solvents) will not do anything to it. It will need to be removed physically.  Airscribes and air abrasives do well with epoxy, but can the fossil wothstand air abrasion?  And do you have these tools?  Things to consider....

 

[GarethGP]

Well the mystery deepens. I was cleaning it today and the previous glue job fell open (not material lost - easy fix), revealing....Schreger lines. Which means this is not deinotherium. The lines look to be somewhat greater than 90 degrees (edit: I'm measuring about 100 degrees), which according to the attached pic means maybe not mammoth but also maybe mammoth? I don't know anymore, I'm completely lost. I'm open to hearing thoughts from people on what they think. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by GarethGP

[Brandy Cole]

I've been told that greater than 90 means likely not mammoth.  More likely to be modern elephant, mastodon, or a gomphothere type proboscidean.  But others who know more may weigh in.

 

 

[GarethGP]

Slightly better pic. It's definitely around 100 degrees, which puts it out of mammoth territory and lower than modern elephant territory. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by GarethGP

[GarethGP]

7 minutes ago, Brandy Cole said:

I've been told that greater than 90 means likely not mammoth.  More likely to be modern elephant, mastodon, or a gomphothere type proboscidean.  But others who know more may weigh in.

 

 

 

Thank you! I'm looking at gomphothere tusk specimens (including one posted on here several years ago) and they look decidedly similar to mine. Right down to the size and singular enamel strip. First pic is courtesy of the user @rylawz

 

 

[GarethGP]

I don't want to clog the ID forum with my silly tusk but I've been doing reading on gomphotheres and apparently they have greater than 90 degree schreger lines and are known for having a single enamel band running down the upper part of the upper tusks (cuvieronius enamel band twisted, so this speciment isn't cuvieronius). My tusk fragment has a single enamel band, and greater 100 degree schreger lines, and I'm starting to wonder if this is some kind of gomphothere specimen. The only thing that doesn't match is that the tusk should apparently be according to one paper, 5cm wide with 0.3cm enamel. Mine is less than 4cm wide with a 0.09 cm enamel. I wonder if I have a juvenile or am just completely wrong about the gomphothere thing. I've attached a slightly clearer pic with clearer shots of the 100 degree schreger lines. 

[GarethGP]

On 5/21/2022 at 3:45 PM, jpc said:

if it is epoxy, acetone (or other solvents) will not do anything to it. It will need to be removed physically.  Airscribes and air abrasives do well with epoxy, but can the fossil wothstand air abrasion?  And do you have these tools?  Things to consider....

 

 

@jpcThank you for the suggestions! I didn't see this comment until now. I think for now I'm going to leave it as it is, and if I get air abrasives later (don't have that available to me right now), I'll try and gently remove it. Whatever the substance is, it's stuck on hard and is very strong. 

Edited May 23, 2022 by GarethGP

[GarethGP]

This will be my last response to this topic for those who were following. I contacted a very knowledgeable chinese expert on proboscidean enamel and this was his response:

 

"Thank you so much for your email. Yes, it look like a tip fragment of an upper tusk. It might from a Gomphotherium, or from Archaeobelodon, Protanancus. You known not only Gomphotherium have upper tusks with enamel band."

 

So there you have it. Not deinotherium. Probably some kind of gomphotherium or archaeobelodon or protanancus upper tusk tip. I don't know that I'll ever nail it down further than that but I'm happy. It's been a fun experience playing detective on this piece. I sincerely appreciate everyone who helped me get there!

 

[Brandy Cole]

@GarethGP Thanks for the update.  It's been an interesting trip. Still a neat thing to own. If I found something like it out hunting I'd be very excited.

[AlaskaNick]

With the acetone bath most of the surface looks much more convincing as a tusk, however I'd say the tip is predominately white epoxy putty that had been used as filler and to round out a potentially broken off portion of a tusk to resemble a tip. I say this because on the first tusk I worked on myself, a juvenile mammoth tusk split in half laterally with a damaged tip, I also used Apoxie sculpt epoxy to rejoin pieces and to create a rounded tip. Once sanded to the same level as the true tusk it can easily be painted to resemble the real thing- especially if they paint the entire piece as it appears they did in this case. I'm not personally opposed to the use of reconstructive epoxy, I think we'd all have far fewer fossils without it, as long as sellers are honest about it!

[GarethGP]

On 7/1/2022 at 10:20 PM, AlaskaNick said:

With the acetone bath most of the surface looks much more convincing as a tusk, however I'd say the tip is predominately white epoxy putty that had been used as filler and to round out a potentially broken off portion of a tusk to resemble a tip. I say this because on the first tusk I worked on myself, a juvenile mammoth tusk split in half laterally with a damaged tip, I also used Apoxie sculpt epoxy to rejoin pieces and to create a rounded tip. Once sanded to the same level as the true tusk it can easily be painted to resemble the real thing- especially if they paint the entire piece as it appears they did in this case. I'm not personally opposed to the use of reconstructive epoxy, I think we'd all have far fewer fossils without it, as long as sellers are honest about it!

 

Hey, so I just saw this post about 8 months late and I'm revisiting this piece to see what I can do with it. I've confirmed it's a gomphothere tusk of some kind - as it has this gorgeous enamel strip on top (if anyone has any suggestions on species, I'm still open to hearing them!). You've inspired me to keep the epoxy tip and try what I can to improve the appearance of this piece - I was really biased against epoxy repairs, but it's true, pieces like this might not have survived if there wasn't reconstruction involved. It's also rare online I've noticed to find gomphothere tusk specimens - so while it looks like a bit of a hack job right now, I want to try to improve that a bit and make it presentable. I've got a better camera now and have taken pics of each angle. If this was your piece what would you do with it from here? Would you just add a little brown paint to the epoxied spots and rounded tip, maybe get some super glue in those cracks to stabilize it a bit more and call it a day? 

 

 

[rocket]

looks nice, interesting detective work to find out what it is

I add some we got from an international dealer some times ago, tips from Mammoth and ???, some look very similar. All from the Netherlands and Poland

 

 

[Meganeura]

14 hours ago, GarethGP said:

 

Hey, so I just saw this post about 8 months late and I'm revisiting this piece to see what I can do with it. I've confirmed it's a gomphothere tusk of some kind - as it has this gorgeous enamel strip on top (if anyone has any suggestions on species, I'm still open to hearing them!). You've inspired me to keep the epoxy tip and try what I can to improve the appearance of this piece - I was really biased against epoxy repairs, but it's true, pieces like this might not have survived if there wasn't reconstruction involved. It's also rare online I've noticed to find gomphothere tusk specimens - so while it looks like a bit of a hack job right now, I want to try to improve that a bit and make it presentable. I've got a better camera now and have taken pics of each angle. If this was your piece what would you do with it from here? Would you just add a little brown paint to the epoxied spots and rounded tip, maybe get some super glue in those cracks to stabilize it a bit more and call it a day? 

 

 

Not an expert by any means here - but personally I’d want that tip painted or gone, and of course you want to make sure the Schreger lines are displayed. And then I’d want to make sure the white epoxy isn’t shown

[AlaskaNick]

It’s totally a personal call whether or not to keep the reconstructed tip/epoxy. If you did want to keep it I would say sand it down to the same level/smoothness of the rest of the tusk and then try to paint to match colors. This one will be a tricky paint job, or at least I know it would be for me. I’m not much of a painter and have neger had to paint such a large surface area, in my case it was usually just crack fill or a much smaller tusk tip in which a uniform color did the trick. In this case a uniform color would probably look worse than the current white epoxy, but I know there are people out there who could expertly paint to match the varying ivory tones and even the natural cracks, but that would be really tough. In the end, it’s just personal choice for what you want on the piece. If you do end up trying to paint if you decide you don’t like it you could always just sand it away again or scrap the whole idea and remove the epoxy altogether.