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Bone Valley trip - June 17th 2022


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Meganeura

So I went hunting in Bone Valley yesterday, the same paid dig site I had originally gone to and met @Nimravis at, and came away with some gorgeous finds!

 

To start off with my favorite find - a part of a Gomphothere tooth and a few other fragments:

AFAC739B-8DC3-4F1B-88C6-BF363B18D5EE.thumb.jpeg.be4e7e296085e464fa7b861b682ab4e0.jpeg21C57798-72AD-4B41-935A-78FDDFFA27B4.thumb.jpeg.dd6398b3e1785c53ebb1afe85024677b.jpeg7F6E3E4C-72DE-44BF-BDAE-7F8EDE0FF6A6.thumb.jpeg.de87a6223e03c4ed878f5a14ab7f90d8.jpeg80A8AA15-39E1-4BAB-9765-A99782C9F937.thumb.jpeg.e2e3e906d854d10ba18d6a0deabec831.jpeg
 

Then of course, as always, some Megs - found 3 complete ones with a bunch of frags, the complete ones are all small, 2”, 1.5”, and 1.2” in slant height:

AAF8B605-7777-4545-BD44-725B6691C2FE.thumb.jpeg.1a55f39d488d98aae16154d783ef0d0e.jpeg7B6E5A1D-811E-4CD4-A4AA-2037C494090E.thumb.jpeg.3505b448d64c7f34476698b97b6fcb47.jpeg


I also found a very complete Three-Toed Horse tooth:

CCC38C67-6879-4C60-98DA-A93DA9031827.thumb.jpeg.559510e2f258242036079449700e5da4.jpeg75F1BF34-5EC7-4C3E-A841-627FF791F492.thumb.jpeg.8950313963454b73d4eb7937eb8801f7.jpeg

 

I found a whole bunch of sand tiger shark teeth, including, finally, one with a cusp:

3B7F2357-19B1-4EEE-9030-6C6BDC2C215C.thumb.jpeg.315403de8d7453c68c8cc578456625b6.jpeg

 

A bunch of snaggletooth shark teeth, including one that was presumably digested as most of the enamel is gone:

2BEE0AB3-87D7-4AC9-8616-41DBB9CB772F.thumb.jpeg.8b2071cecb344cfd87a0411b09558360.jpeg
 

A lone C. Hastalis tooth:

42D6445F-5B3F-4030-B5E3-0D6A57E42893.thumb.jpeg.1872485796e1028ef1887177e01903a1.jpeg

 

A (fish?) vertebrae, barracuda tooth, and sting Ray barb pieces:

48563528-979E-42CA-8045-4F83D651EA1D.thumb.jpeg.f2bb7e1b824c38f7d569f2ae140c99b1.jpeg

 

And finally, what I’ve been told is a Crocodilian Gastrolith, though I’m unsure of it myself and will be posting it in the ID page:

765CBBC4-7748-44EA-98B2-65103B7C4B7A.thumb.jpeg.389bbd45411e4723e907d90135599bd1.jpeg
 

Overall an awesome trip and I will definitely be going back again!

 

Edited by Meganeura
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mr.cheese

Jealous once again! Nice finds chap!

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Nimravis

Some great stuff there Daniel, it is nice that some mammal pieces coming out. I know I saw some mammoth teeth from there, but new types are great. You need to find a nice cat jaw with a couple teeth. If I was down there, I would be hitting that site today if they had an opening.

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Meganeura
Just now, Nimravis said:

Some great stuff there Daniel, it is nice that some mammal pieces coming out. I know I saw some mammoth teeth from there, but new types are great. You need to find a nice cat jaw with a couple teeth. If I was down there, I would be hitting that site today if they had an opening.

Honestly if I wasn't so burned and they had an opening I'd probably be back out there today too!

I do really want to find dire wolf, cat, or bear stuff. Any mammalian  carnivore from the Pliocene/Miocene in Florida would be awesome!

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Nimravis
1 minute ago, Meganeura said:

do really want to find dire wolf, cat, or bear stuff. Any mammalian  carnivore from the Pliocene/Miocene in Florida would be awesome!

I agree, gotta love the carnivores.

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Shellseeker

Daniel,

Congrats  !!! Nice finds....

1) On the horse tooth,  This is a lower pre_Equus horse cheek tooth. Advice Get yourself a Caliper, Sometimes the only way to differentiate these small horse teeth is by size , and you need the APL measurement in millemeters to have a chance.

2) On the Hastalis,  that would not have been my 1st guess, but maybe others would chime in.

3) On the Gomph, who IDed as Gomph... Other possibilities are Mastodon or Rhino....I will have to think about...

 

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Meganeura
5 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Daniel,

Congrats  !!! Nice finds....

1) On the horse tooth,  This is a lower pre_Equus horse cheek tooth. Advice Get yourself a Caliper, Sometimes the only way to differentiate these small horse teeth is by size , and you need the APL measurement in millemeters to have a chance.

2) On the Hastalis,  that would not have been my 1st guess, but maybe others would chime in.

3) On the Gomph, who IDed as Gomph... Other possibilities are Mastodon or Rhino....I will have to think about...

 

Thank you, I'm definitely happy with the finds as a whole, they're some really neat pieces!

1) I will definitely look into that, I didn't realize there was a pre-equus horse in Florida at all. I'll definitely be picking up a caliper!

2) What would you have guessed instead of Hastalis? It has no serrations and the root is... shallow? At least compared to bull and lemon which are the only other teeth that I know of from the area that could possibly be confused with a Hastalis.

3) The woman in charge of the site did, and I compared it to @Harry Pristis's gallery picture here, thinking that it's the bottom portion of the tooth:

The only reason I didn't think mastodon was due to no long root, and that there was a similar Gomph piece found earlier this week at the same site. However, I can definitely see it being a rhino tooth, as the shape is similar to the piece you bought, here:

 

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Shellseeker

I search for comparable:  This is Gomph, but your tooth is smaller. Note , on an uperupted tooth that Hulbert declined to choose between Mastodon and Gomph.. I am not saying it is not Gomph,  just that it is hard to be sure... 

IMG_6020.thumb.JPEG.f58e63b547999ff00f0cdb69c83f852d.JPEG

 

I thought it might be Rhino but JUST failed to find a photo of a Rhino Milk tooth I found...

 

On the shark tooth, I considered a different species of Mako,   then Meg, then Thresher in decreasing likelihood

 

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Meganeura
1 minute ago, Shellseeker said:

I search for comparable:  This is Gomph, but your tooth is smaller. Note , on an uperupted tooth that Hulbert declined to choose between Mastodon and Gomph.. I am not saying it is not Gomph,  just that it is hard to be sure... 

IMG_6020.thumb.JPEG.f58e63b547999ff00f0cdb69c83f852d.JPEG

 

I thought it might be Rhino but JUST failed to find a photo of a Rhino Milk tooth I found...

 

On the shark tooth, I considered a different species of Mako,   then Meg, then Thresher in decreasing likelihood

 

Well, Gomph or Mastodon it's a first either way for me, so I really can't complain, especially with the gorgeous coloring on the inside of it.

I'll have to do more research into what other Mako are in Florida then, and how to tell the difference between them and Hastalis. What makes you say possibly Meg? Also I don't believe I've found any thresher shark teeth yet. Or i've just misidentified them. I've probably got a few alongside some hammerhead teeth mixed in with my lemon shark and bull shark teeth.

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Shellseeker

I got to go,  my last response until tonight,

Many times, identification is just not simple.... ALL my options are long shots

ToothCropped.thumb.jpg.3756a43b81c018af232677a80f060077.jpg

 

Mostly , I have not seen a lot of Hastalis that look like this...

 

Small Megs do not have much of a Bourlette,and can curve one direction or another,  I have Megs without serrations (worn off)...

smallMeg.jpg.8d06f4df08f7e5982c39d96a1d908702.jpgbabyMegZolfo2012.thumb.jpg.15ea5115ac24ca6628527d717bae7a84.jpg

 

I have few Thresher shark teeth...

2013Jan3rdGiantThresherMerge-1.thumb.jpg.48bcd5cc5a27469a8f224853826e2efe.jpg

 

and another species of Mako.... 

Mar16th2015HorseIsurusDesoriLateralMrg.jpg.00226414269d7fa33144f6237a442a51.jpg

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Meganeura
2 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

I got to go,  my last response until tonight,

Many times, identification is just not simple.... ALL my options are long shots

ToothCropped.thumb.jpg.3756a43b81c018af232677a80f060077.jpg

 

Mostly , I have not seen a lot of Hastalis that look like this...

 

Small Megs do not have much of a Bourlette,and can curve one direction or another,  I have Megs without serrations (worn off)...

smallMeg.jpg.8d06f4df08f7e5982c39d96a1d908702.jpgbabyMegZolfo2012.thumb.jpg.15ea5115ac24ca6628527d717bae7a84.jpg

 

I have few Thresher shark teeth...

2013Jan3rdGiantThresherMerge-1.thumb.jpg.48bcd5cc5a27469a8f224853826e2efe.jpg

 

and another species of Mako.... 

Mar16th2015HorseIsurusDesoriLateralMrg.jpg.00226414269d7fa33144f6237a442a51.jpg

I appreciate the response regardless! I do have 2 baby posterior megs, one of which has no serrations, and it is quite differently shaped which is why I didn't think it was. I can definitely see it being the Isurus Desori or possibly the thresher though! Thanks for the help Jack!

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Shellseeker

Just retook a couple of photos to show similarity of Rhino

IMG_6072.thumb.JPEG.b99f3fa435e00206f62d09db0f947e5c.JPEGIMG_6075.thumb.JPEG.c4a1f835454695e4b57dca3ff3e173d8.JPEG

 

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Meganeura
3 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Just retook a couple of photos to show similarity of Rhino

IMG_6072.thumb.JPEG.b99f3fa435e00206f62d09db0f947e5c.JPEGIMG_6075.thumb.JPEG.c4a1f835454695e4b57dca3ff3e173d8.JPEG

 

Yeah i can 100% see the resemblance. To me it looks most like a rhino tooth, but I'm not at all sure how to tell them apart.

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Harry Pristis

I agree with the lady in charge -- the tooth fragment is gomphothere, not rhino, not mastodon.

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Meganeura
1 minute ago, Harry Pristis said:

I agree with the lady in charge -- the tooth fragment is gomphothere, not rhino, not mastodon.

The confirmation is very welcome, but I am curious to know how you're able to distinguish between the 3! I love learning more about fossils that I find, so being able to differentiate in the future would be awesome.

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Harry Pristis

Irregularities ("lumpiness," diversions) in the cleft indicate gomphothere over mastodon.  Rhino lowers have off-set cusps and no irregularities in the enamel.

 

rhino_teleoceras_pair.thumb.JPG.469091c9dbeafb724edbb43a00849022.JPG

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Meganeura
6 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

Irregularities ("lumpiness," diversions) in the cleft indicate gomphothere over mastodon.  Rhino lowers have off-set cusps and no irregularities in the enamel.

 

rhino_teleoceras_pair.thumb.JPG.469091c9dbeafb724edbb43a00849022.JPG

Awesome, thank you so much! I appreciate the help!

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siteseer

Great horse tooth.  Those are rare enough.  They were common finds back in the 80's.

 

I think that shark tooth could be C. hastalis.  It's rare in the Bone Valley Formation but people find it.

 

I won't speak for @fossillarry but he identifies horse teeth with the features showing on the biting surface - overall size helps too.  That looks like a lower tooth.

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Meganeura
3 hours ago, siteseer said:

Great horse tooth.  Those are rare enough.  They were common finds back in the 80's.

 

I think that shark tooth could be C. hastalis.  It's rare in the Bone Valley Formation but people find it.

 

I won't speak for @fossillarry but he identifies horse teeth with the features showing on the biting surface - overall size helps too.  That looks like a lower tooth.

One of the guys I was hunting through the material with found a very large, complete, C. Hastalis and I’ve found another small C. Hastalis from the same dig site, which is part of my reasoning! 
 

but thank you, it’s definitely the nicest horse tooth I’ve found, especially considering it’s not at all worn!

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fossillarry

I am petty sure that the horse tooth is the lower right  p3/4 from Nannippus aztecus and is at least three quarters worn.   I believe the tooth fragment is from an upper tooth of a rhino, possibly the hypocone part of the metaloph with the crochet, but this is a halfhearted guess.

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Meganeura
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, fossillarry said:

I am petty sure that the horse tooth is the lower right  p3/4 from Nannippus aztecus and is at least three quarters worn.   I believe the tooth fragment is from an upper tooth of a rhino, possibly the hypocone part of the metaloph with the crochet, but this is a halfhearted guess.

I ended up finding 2 other horse teeth in my more recent bone valley trip - any chance you'd know what they might be from? Also, why rhino over Gomph? Fair enough on the horse tooth being worn. I'm used to fragments from the peace river which have been vastly more worn in comparison.

 

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fossillarry

Why a rhino? firstly I don"t think that the enamel on the margins  of the tooth fragment is thick enough to be from a gomphotherium and I don"tsee how this fragment could fit into one of the lophs of a gomphotherium tooth. I could be otherwise with evidence .

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Meganeura
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, fossillarry said:

Why a rhino? firstly I don"t think that the enamel on the margins  of the tooth fragment is thick enough to be from a gomphotherium and I don"tsee how this fragment could fit into one of the lophs of a gomphotherium tooth. I could be otherwise with evidence .

Well as I mentioned up-thread, I could absolutely see it being Rhino. Gomph I figured it could fit into the area here in red, or something quite similar, from @Shellseeker's collection:
IMG_6020.JPEG.e920e3ee703361ad596b757772f5541b.thumb.jpg.94719d14fa8717cc6a66c06802268a8d.jpg
But really Id be very happy for either! 
I found a similar fragment my last trip as well - though it was smaller and probably even more difficult to tell. 

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Shellseeker
7 hours ago, fossillarry said:

Why a rhino? firstly I don"t think that the enamel on the margins  of the tooth fragment is thick enough to be from a gomphotherium and I don"tsee how this fragment could fit into one of the lophs of a gomphotherium tooth. I could be otherwise with evidence .

So Daniel,  I agree with Larry. I strongly believe that the enamel on the margins of the Rhino teeth is thinner than equivalent enamel on either gomphothere or mastodon. I would like to see examples that others provide to refute this theory. 

Additionally,  Rhino enamel has Vertical Hunter_Schreger  Bands which all other Florida Fossil land mammals lack. These 2 characteristics should be more than sufficient for you or me or anyone to differentiate Rhino tooth enamel.

I went hunting Wednesday.... I found a couple of chips of tooth enamel, as I usually do. These chips are tiny... I used a macro lens on my cellphone.  Can you identify the mammal ?

IMG_6431RhinoChip.thumb.jpg.cd0dd7e8a00e784fe064d664737c4974.jpgRhinoChip_Vertical_HSB.JPG.39bcb0605e5d1fbcde60cd3a968428d2.JPG

 

 

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