How to distinguish different Vertebrae from Florida

[NatalieP]

How do you distinguish different vertebrae? What are the characteristics of sea creatures vs land animals? Then when a land animal what are the distinguishing features between them? Are there specific things to look at or for when trying to ID them? What is the characteristics you look for when figuring whale or  mastodon/mammoth? What are the specific characteristics you look for when differentiating deer, horse, sloth, bison? And so on... thank you so much for the input here

Edited June 20, 2022 by NatalieP

[jpc]

There is no quick answer to this... this is an essay question.  

 

But if you want to limit your answers to things one might find in Florida, well, the essay just got much shorter.  

Edited June 20, 2022 by jpc

[NatalieP]

1 hour ago, jpc said:

There is no quick answer to this... this is an essay question.  

 

But if you want to limit your answers to things one might find in Florida, well, the essay just got much shorter.  

Ok yes I guess I should rephrase that to found in florida. Lol. I know it's not a short answer!

 

[doushantuo]

THE ANATOMICAL RECORD 290:624–637 (2007)

Vertebral Anatomy in the Florida Manatee, Trichechus manatus
latirostris: A Developmental and Evolutionary Analysis
EMILY A. BUCHHOLTZ, AMY C. BOOTH, AND KATHERINE E. WEBBINK

Anatal Record - 2007 - Buchholtz - Vertebral anatomy in the Florida manatee Trichechus manatus latirostris A.pdf

[doushantuo]

 

 

 

Images from D'altona and Pander's Vergleichende Osteologie(public domain)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2022 by doushantuo

[Shellseeker]

On 6/20/2022 at 12:59 PM, NatalieP said:

How do you distinguish different vertebrae? What are the characteristics of sea creatures vs land animals? Then when a land animal what are the distinguishing features between them? Are there specific things to look at or for when trying to ID them? What is the characteristics you look for when figuring whale or  mastodon/mammoth? What are the specific characteristics you look for when differentiating deer, horse, sloth, bison? And so on... thank you so much for the input here

A quote from one of my favorite actors.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2017/AVNJDu.mp4

 

1) You base your knowledge on the Verts you find and identify yourself

2) You learn from others,  like on this forum,  When someone looks for and identifies a Vert found in your hunting area, you interact,  understand the differences and save the photos..

3) To start , you narrow your scope (Florida) and then focus on the vertebra that most interest you and that you are most likely to find....

Biggest ones 1st,  since THAT will really help to narrow and identify:  Whale, Elephants, Bison, Horse, Sloths, Dugong, Dolphins, Alligator

Seems like you are finding marine mammals right now,  focus on that... Whale and dolphin, Just search the internet for "Whale Dolphin fossil Vertebrae" , and read... you will find research papers, photos, pictures, etc etc

 

 

4) Search TFF for threads that discuss the Vert you are interested in today....

 

Lastly, Do you  just want someone else to identify your fossil finds OR

Do you want to identify them yourself ?

 

 

[NatalieP]

8 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

A quote from one of my favorite actors.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2017/AVNJDu.mp4

 

1) You base your knowledge on the Verts you find and identify yourself

2) You learn from others,  like on this forum,  When someone looks for and identifies a Vert found in your hunting area, you interact,  understand the differences and save the photos..

3) To start , you narrow your scope (Florida) and then focus on the vertebra that most interest you and that you are most likely to find....

Biggest ones 1st,  since THAT will really help to narrow and identify:  Whale, Elephants, Bison, Horse, Sloths, Dugong, Dolphins, Alligator

Seems like you are finding marine mammals right now,  focus on that... Whale and dolphin, Just search the internet for "Whale Dolphin fossil Vertebrae" , and read... you will find research papers, photos, pictures, etc etc

 

 

4) Search TFF for threads that discuss the Vert you are interested in today....

 

Lastly, Do you  just want someone else to identify your fossil finds OR

Do you want to identify them yourself ?

 

 

Yes I enjoy researching and trying to identify the verts I find by myself. Whales and dolphins are easy. Mammoth/Mastodon are easy maybe not for me to tell which is which. Now the different land animals confuse me. Snakes easy to identify,  gators easy to identify they have specific traits. I have found a vast array of fossils not just Whale and Dolphin. The other night I found a mixture of things from miocene, pliocene and pleistocene... I do a lot of research or at least try my best to before even asking anyone for help or even just picking their brain... I made this post bc I wanted to pick some brains. Ad I definitely feel that from finding the fossils yourself does make it way easier to identify but sometimes you find new things or things that just look different. Now horse and bison I find really hard to ID for me, Along with Sloth. I can ID their teeth but definitely not their bones except the cannon bones they are a little easier bc I have found through finding they have specific traits. I was hoping to just try to learn some more to help me ID more easily. 

[NatalieP]

19 hours ago, doushantuo said:

THE ANATOMICAL RECORD 290:624–637 (2007)

Vertebral Anatomy in the Florida Manatee, Trichechus manatus
latirostris: A Developmental and Evolutionary Analysis
EMILY A. BUCHHOLTZ, AMY C. BOOTH, AND KATHERINE E. WEBBINK

Anatal Record - 2007 - Buchholtz - Vertebral anatomy in the Florida manatee Trichechus manatus latirostris A.pdf 529.28 kB · 0 downloads

Thank you for the read!

[doushantuo]

e.g.:

 

https://www.knochenarbeit.de/kontakt/

 

edits:

Just realized the page is in German 

academically trained scientist,with archeozoological* expertise

There MIGHT be a database in there somewhere

 

* which is NOT the same as palaeontology

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by doushantuo

[Shellseeker]

18 minutes ago, NatalieP said:

Yes I enjoy researching and trying to identify the verts I find by myself. Whales and dolphins are easy. Mammoth/Mastodon are easy maybe not for me to tell which is which. Now the different land animals confuse me. Snakes easy to identify,  gators easy to identify they have specific traits. I have found a vast array of fossils not just Whale and Dolphin. The other night I found a mixture of things from miocene, pliocene and pleistocene... I do a lot of research or at least try my best to before even asking anyone for help or even just picking their brain... I made this post bc I wanted to pick some brains. Ad I definitely feel that from finding the fossils yourself does make it way easier to identify but sometimes you find new things or things that just look different. Now horse and bison I find really hard to ID for me, Along with Sloth. I can ID their teeth but definitely not their bones except the cannon bones they are a little easier bc I have found through finding they have specific traits. I was hoping to just try to learn some more to help me ID more easily. 

Natalie,

As I look at your response,  I almost put  "Yes",  Yes and Yes,  Me too, Me Too, Yes, Yes  just to show that I had the same thoughts and tendencies that you do...

I hunted the Peace River for the 1st time in 2008 having retired from a workaholic, road warrior job that I pursued for 40 years. In 2011, I used contacts to pick up a contractor job that had me commuting weekly from Florida to California. When I stopped working for money, I turned all that energy and time into hunting Bone Valley 3-5 10-12 hour days every week. The more I hunted the more I found, the more I learned.

I joined TFF in Sept , 2009. It has been a fantastic ride of 13 years.. On Fossils,  I was about as smart as a rock starting out.. I did not know what anything was... I tossed away Armadillo osteoderms because they looked like man made asphalt to me. I dug in the mud and sand, not realizing it was the gravel that contained most of the fossils. It took me 9 !!!! months of heavy hunting to find a single whole Meg in a river that contained hundreds of thousands of them.

 

The precious commodity is time.. Been that way all my life. I can look at a fossil you found and easily say it is a mandibular condyle from a Baleen whale jaw... I believe that  is one of the areas where I have some expertise. Your request is to tell you what I see that makes me think that is a correct identification. That is more difficult and will take a lot more time. I would have to make that time up somewhere... I would hunt less, find less, learn less.  Most fossil hunters are not like you.. They are happy to  ask for help and get an answer.. They are not going place fossil hunting and identification of fossils they are not finding high in their priorities and move to other higher priorities, like jobs, relationships, other hobbies,etc 99% of people who joined the fossil organizations I did over the last 13 years no longer pay attention.

 

I love seeing your enthusiasm and energy. I hope you can figure out ways to contribute more to the fossil hunting community and especially the new converts. 

[NatalieP]

8 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Natalie,

As I look at your response,  I almost put  "Yes",  Yes and Yes,  Me too, Me Too, Yes, Yes  just to show that I had the same thoughts and tendencies that you do...

I hunted the Peace River for the 1st time in 2008 having retired from a workaholic, road warrior job that I pursued for 40 years. In 2011, I used contacts to pick up a contractor job that had me commuting weekly from Florida to California. When I stopped working for money, I turned all that energy and time into hunting Bone Valley 3-5 10-12 hour days every week. The more I hunted the more I found, the more I learned.

I joined TFF in Sept , 2009. It has been a fantastic ride of 13 years.. On Fossils,  I was about as smart as a rock starting out.. I did not know what anything was... I tossed away Armadillo osteoderms because they looked like man made asphalt to me. I dug in the mud and sand, not realizing it was the gravel that contained most of the fossils. It took me 9 !!!! months of heavy hunting to find a single whole Meg in a river that contained hundreds of thousands of them.

 

The precious commodity is time.. Been that way all my life. I can look at a fossil you found and easily say it is a mandibular condyle from a Baleen whale jaw... I believe that  is one of the areas where I have some expertise. Your request is to tell you what I see that makes me think that is a correct identification. That is more difficult and will take a lot more time. I would have to make that time up somewhere... I would hunt less, find less, learn less.  Most fossil hunters are not like you.. They are happy to  ask for help and get an answer.. They are not going place fossil hunting and identification of fossils they are not finding high in their priorities and move to other higher priorities, like jobs, relationships, other hobbies,etc 99% of people who joined the fossil organizations I did over the last 13 years no longer pay attention.

 

I love seeing your enthusiasm and energy. I hope you can figure out ways to contribute more to the fossil hunting community and especially the new converts. 

I'm just starting to figure out this site. That you can post on your page and there are threads and what not. I joined last year but was in a car accident that broke me back and messed up my neck so I've been kinda out of everything since then. I find this site much more informative than others and I will try to figure it out so I can post and learn and help! 

[Tales From the Shale]

I can tell you that any cartillaginous animals such as sharks are generally always round with no visible chevron, whereas calcified bone both terrestrial and aquatic will likely have them. Aquatic mammal vertebrae such as those from manatees may feel much more dense, to offset buoyancy.

[Harry Pristis]

2 hours ago, Tales From the Shale said:

I can tell you that any cartillaginous animals such as sharks are generally always round with no visible chevron, whereas calcified bone both terrestrial and aquatic will likely have them. Aquatic mammal vertebrae such as those from manatees may feel much more dense, to offset buoyancy.

What do you mean by "visible chevron"?  A chevron is one of a series of bones on the ventral (under) side of the tail in many reptiles, dinosaurs (such as Diplodocus, and some mammals such as kangaroos and manatees.

[Tales From the Shale]

Exactly what I mean shark vertebrae typically don't possess that characteristic but as I said animals with calcified skeletons do. I guess I should have worded it as "possessed" instead of "visible" but my bad.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Tales From the Shale