Summertime Hunting

[Shellseeker]

In the summer,  my hunting strategies change. The Peace River is too fast and deep for successful hunting. I travel farther into Bone Valley, either land hunting or very remote lakes, rivers, creeks. Generally, I see no other hunters.

I have a few spots that I know about but hunt sparsely and save as last resorts.  I am having difficulty making time for hunting. Wife is away to SC, and I am on dog sitting duty, guests and relatives are arriving later this week and next. So, Monday was one of the few days I could go.. My hunting partner called Sunday night, had to back out.  I went anyway, but when going solo into remote parts of Florida, I take extra precautions.

 

Monday was a beautiful day, sunshine, very warm, and for whatever reasons, noseeums, mosquitoes and horse flies were not as active as they normally are... I went back to a location where I had super success years before.  I was finding little shark teeth, ray teeth, broken barbs and denticles and little else. Then I popped a very nice barracuda tooth,  one of my best...   this shape is not as common as the other shape I find and I started wondering if it was from a different species. 

Searching the Internet,  I found this research paper that used Barracuda fossils from UF_MNH for analysis. I also saw comments that scientists and volunteers were finding bony fishes including Barracuda at Montbrook and we on TFF have members in high places @digit. The paper is : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/347523589_New_Records_of_the_Genus_Sphyraena_Teleostei_Sphyraenidae_from_the_Caribbean_with_Comments_on_Dental_Characters_in_the_Genus

It has this photo: A & B are symphyseal teeth, C thru I are "normal"   teeth.  I did not know that.  I find many more symphyseals than normal Barracuda teeth.

 

Back to the days hunting.. I got tired of this location after an hour, and moved 50 feet downstream.. I noted that there was gravel in the center and though I had dug here extensively years previously. So, I did not know why the gravel was there, but decided to try a sieve or two anyway.

This screen is pretty full  4-5 shovel fulls.  I am scraping some type of bluish clay material.  It is the lighter stuff.  I am always looking for black.  Do you see it?

 

How about now ? I saw it immediately, and paused to take an In_situ shot, just for TFF. Note the black root and gray blade.

 

I have found Megs here before, Usually are bluish green and the roots lighten up a lot. I found this Blue 20 feet away , almost 2 years ago.

 

Here is Monday's Meg, Both seem to have that lighter tip...

 

I found a Tridactyl lower horse tooth in the next sieve. and it not matter how or why the gravel was there. I was finding good stuff and I would stay on this spot for the rest of the day. !!!!! I think this is a lower right m3, similar to example T, page 292 The Fossil Vertebrates of Florida.

 

As you can imagine,  I was really pleased. 

It was not quite over yet.. Back to finding little shark teeth, ray teeth, broken barbs and denticles, broken mammal teeth (likely horse). With 30 minutes to go, I picked up a chunky little tooth,  no roots beat up. Did not recognize it and toss it into the collection bag without determining what it might be.

At home, a couple of things occurred to me.. Minus the roots, this was basically a whole tooth because the photo of the root area has edges that are mostly unbroken.... the 2nd tooth has a ridge running down the right side with vertical striations.... I have seen that previously at this site.

 

In February,  Richard Hulbert identified the tooth on the right as "an upper cheek tooth of a rhino". I think this new tooth on the left is a premolar of a juvenile rhino.  The two teeth were found 25 feet apart.

 

Monday was a rather spectacular day.  Life is like a box of chocolates. ......

 

[jcbshark]

Wow Jack, that's a great day for sure It's good to have some options when the rains crank up!

[Meganeura]

Wow those are some reallllllllly nice finds! This is really making me want to find more creeks to search! 

[digit]

4 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Searching the Internet,  I found this research paper that used Barracuda fossils from UF_MNH for analysis. I also saw comments that scientists and volunteers were finding bony fishes including Barracuda at Montbrook and we on TFF have members in high places @digit. The paper is : https://www.researchgate.net/publication/347523589_New_Records_of_the_Genus_Sphyraena_Teleostei_Sphyraenidae_from_the_Caribbean_with_Comments_on_Dental_Characters_in_the_Genus

It has this photo: A & B are symphyseal teeth, C thru I are "normal"   teeth.  I did not know that.  I find many more symphyseals than normal Barracuda teeth.

I don't know that I'd call any barracuda teeth "symphyseal" which are the ones that grow at the symphysis which is the point in the center line of the jaw where the left and right sides join together. Sharks are notable for having specially shaped teeth at the symphysis. It is definitely true that barracuda have two differently shaped teeth. The ones along most of the jaw are rather symmetrical and have smooth concave edges front and back. Somehow these teeth always remind me of the pointed ends of pumpkin or watermelon seeds (maybe I'm just hungry when looking at these teeth). The other more fang-like teeth occur more anteriorly in the jaw and when looked at in profile have a S-shaped curve to their outline. They tend to be more long and skinny as well. You can see both forms here in this image of a modern barracuda skull.

 

 

Thanks a bunch, Jack, for the link to this paper that had escaped my attention (till now). More reading material.....

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Shellseeker]

13 minutes ago, digit said:

Thanks a bunch, Jack, for the link to this paper that had escaped my attention (till now). More reading material.....

Thanks for the photos ,Ken.  I will add them to my private database.  Do you think that there were multiple Florida Sphyraena species? and in your hunting, did it seem that your were finding fewer side jaw teeth compared to the fang_like ones?  That seems to be my impression but wrong when you consider the relative numbers of each in a single Barracuda's jaw. 

[digit]

Difficult to know if the ancient species was the modern day Great Barracuda (Sphyrna barracuda) or something different. The 5 million year old fossils from the Montbrook site might possibly represent and older (and now extinct species) but the general method used is to consider it indistinguishable from the modern species if the fossils (teeth in this case) are in no measurably way different from the modern ones.

 

As far as I know there is really only a single species in the fossil record. There are 3 species of modern barracuda in the genus but the Great Barracuda is the largest of the 3 and seemingly the one that we find in the fossil record.

 

The fang-like ones are not the most common and if you look at the skull photo you see above seems to have more of the rounded convex teeth and only a few of the S-curved ones in the upper anterior. This seems to match roughly the frequency that I find the two forms.

 

Seems like there would be interest in a Barracuda-talk podcast.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Meganeura]

9 hours ago, digit said:

Difficult to know if the ancient species was the modern day Great Barracuda (Sphyrna barracuda) or something different. The 5 million year old fossils from the Montbrook site might possibly represent and older (and now extinct species) but the general method used is to consider it indistinguishable from the modern species if the fossils (teeth in this case) are in no measurably way different from the modern ones.

 

As far as I know there is really only a single species in the fossil record. There are 3 species of modern barracuda in the genus but the Great Barracuda is the largest of the 3 and seemingly the one that we find in the fossil record.

 

The fang-like ones are not the most common and if you look at the skull photo you see above seems to have more of the rounded convex teeth and only a few of the S-curved ones in the upper anterior. This seems to match roughly the frequency that I find the two forms.

 

Seems like there would be interest in a Barracuda-talk podcast.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

I can confirm this - I’ve only found the pumpkin seed teeth (and they really do look like seeds!) - I think I have 10 of them now? Versus a single fang tooth. 

[digit]

Here's a few for comparison from the Montbrook site (both forms).

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

 

[Meganeura]

14 minutes ago, digit said:

Here's a few for comparison from the Montbrook site (both forms).

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

 

Huh. So most of mine are still pumpkin seed ones, but now I wonder how many I have that I thought were sawfish rostrum teeth are actually barracuda teeth. The second from the left on the top row of pic 1 look very similar to sawfish rostrum teeth!

[digit]

Yup. Does share a basic shape with sawfish rostral "teeth" (which are actually highly modified dermal denticles). Barracuda teeth have a thin edge of enamel that quite often looks darker and more shiny than the rest of the tooth. The very tips (for obvious functional purposes) tend to have a fairly thick cap of enamel. Sawfish rostrals do not have any enamel (not that I've seen anyway) and tend to have more striations along their length.

 

Also from the Montbrook site.

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

 

 

[Meganeura]

16 minutes ago, digit said:

Yup. Does share a basic shape with sawfish rostral "teeth" (which are actually highly modified dermal denticles). Barracuda teeth have a thin edge of enamel that quite often looks darker and more shiny than the rest of the tooth. The very tips (for obvious functional purposes) tend to have a fairly thick cap of enamel. Sawfish rostrals do not have any enamel (not that I've seen anyway) and tend to have more striations along their length.

 

Also from the Montbrook site.

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

 

 

I suppose I’ll have to look a lot closer at mine then! Though they both currently sit in the same drawer anyway. I really need more room - I’ve stopped picking up Ray mouthplates and lemon shark teeth cause my drawers have gotten full.

[Shellseeker]

From another TFF Thread: @Al Dente is an expert on Rostral teeth.... To me , the most significant differentiator is the flat trailing edge

 

[Shellseeker]

And then I found this comparison from April, 2014 in Charlie Creek

 

Obviously , a lot of variations,  and some resemble Barracuda teeth...  This one from the Knifetooth Sawfish

[Meganeura]

11 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

And then I found this comparison from April, 2014 in Charlie Creek

 

Obviously , a lot of variations,  and some resemble Barracuda teeth...  This one from the Knifetooth Sawfish

Wow that’s so similar to both. I guess experience really eventually becomes the only way to tell?

[digit]

7 hours ago, Meganeura said:

Wow that’s so similar to both. I guess experience really eventually becomes the only way to tell?

The key is in the striations which are readily visible in the images of the sawfish rostrals above. The lack of the enameled edge helps confirm these as sawfish rather than cuda.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Nimravis]

Jack, Great finds, pics and report.

[ClearLake]

On 6/22/2022 at 1:29 PM, Shellseeker said:

Here is Monday's Meg, Both seem to have that lighter tip...

That is a very nice one Jack. 
 

On 6/23/2022 at 5:35 PM, digit said:

The key is in the striations which are readily visible in the images of the sawfish rostrals above. The lack of the enameled edge helps confirm these as sawfish rather than cuda.

I previously learned about the two types of barracuda teeth, but I think this is new to me on the sawfish rostrals (or I just don’t remember it at the moment). I’ll have to go back and look at my Gainesville pickings when I get back home to see if I have some of these. Thanks

[digit]

Haven't noticed many (if any) sawfish rostrals in the matrix from the Gainesville creeks. Watched a YouTube video recently from forum founder Cris who was out fossil hunting in creeks and the site was turning up numerous sawfish rostrals. I've found them infrequently in the Peace River and we have literally just 2 from the Montbrook site. Usually not very common but rather distinctive when you get to recognize them.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Family Fun]

As usual Jack, your trip reports are filled with with both fun and great detail.  And for the third piece, your finds are just amazing.  Always enjoy your posts, either helping others ID fossils or your own trips.

 

Rick

[Shellseeker]

Have a response from Richard,

Quote

The horse tooth is a slightly worn m2 as the posterior extension does not extend the whole length of the tooth crown. Nannippus seems to be the right genus.

The rhino teeth are just fragments, not complete teeth.

Richard

Always grateful for insights from Richard.  He has written the book on the Nannippus genus in Florida. There are 4 or 5 Nannippus species in the Florida Miocene.  I'll update my photo to indicate Nannippus .sp and m2 instead of m3.

 

I am pleased just with the identification of "Rhino", middle Miocene for Bone Valley...on these 2 finds,  even if just fragments.  I have had a difficult time finding comparisons Rhino teeth at this size.  

[Shellseeker]

5 minutes ago, Family Fun said:

As usual Jack, your trip reports are filled with with both fun and great detail.  And for the third piece, your finds are just amazing.  Always enjoy your posts, either helping others ID fossils or your own trips.

 

Rick

Thanks, Rick

These are unusual finds.  I get a lot of joy in sharing my finds with fossil enthusiasts, who either learn new stuff or extend the discussion with new insights for me.

Because of rarity,  the one that excites me is the Rhino, even as a fragment.   Jack

[JeremyCaseltine]

Looks like you made the most of your limited time! I am very jealous! 

[Shellseeker]

5 hours ago, JeremyCaseltine said:

Looks like you made the most of your limited time! I am very jealous! 

Thanks Jeremy. I am very fortunate to have ended up in SouthWest Florida,  when I retired 15 years ago.. and I thank my Dad who took me to the Peabody and New York Museums of Natural History,  every summer starting at age 5...He managed to make many of his dreams,  mine.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Shellseeker

[fossilhunter21]

Nice finds, and awesome trip report! Thank you for sharing, Jack! 

 

-Micah