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Hello ! 

Info from seller : Spinosaurid neck vertebra from kem kem . 

What do you think ? 

 

Best regards

Guns

rare-cretaceous-theropod-spinosaurid-dinosaur-neck-vertebra-from-kem-kem-morocco-sku-v4034-sigilmassasaurus-aff-brevicollis-p6208-17896_medium.jpg.8eb7c0b9c1d8d3c3e03638890910777a.jpgrare-cretaceous-theropod-spinosaurid-dinosaur-neck-vertebra-from-kem-kem-morocco-sku-v4034-sigilmassasaurus-aff-brevicollis-p6208-17895_medium.jpg.2f10abbfaa603e06798ff8a14d878d47.jpgrare-cretaceous-theropod-spinosaurid-dinosaur-neck-vertebra-from-kem-kem-morocco-sku-v4034-sigilmassasaurus-aff-brevicollis-p6208-17894_medium.jpg.f47e6d26145ee37b0019c7cb257b1ea6.jpgrare-cretaceous-theropod-spinosaurid-dinosaur-neck-vertebra-from-kem-kem-morocco-sku-v4034-sigilmassasaurus-aff-brevicollis-p6208-17893_medium.jpg.2de863e68320b1eb270fd3d563802a60.jpg

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Troodon

Yes its a vertebra of a Spinosaurid, might even be a Sigilmassasaurus

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Thank you for the quick response Frank ! 

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8 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Yes its a vertebra of a Spinosaurid, might even be a Sigilmassasaurus

What do you think about position of this vert ? ( dorsal or cervical ? ) 

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Troodon

I would lean towards cervical but the real expert on these is @LordTrilobitelets see what he says.

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LordTrilobite

This is either one of the last cervicals or one of the first dorsals. So cervical 9 or 10. Or dorsal 1 or 2.
It does indeed look like Spinosaurid. But I would lean away from Sigilmassasaurus due to the lack of a ventral rugose triangular plateau on the centrum.


So, Spinosaurid indet. posterior cervical or anterior dorsal vert.

Very nice piece.

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Troodon
1 hour ago, LordTrilobite said:

But I would lean away from Sigilmassasaurus

 I said maybe Sigil because the platform was not as formed as others but closer to these two examples.   

 

 

Screenshot_20220626-074339_Firefox.jpg.d3304a32e9d484023ab19a5b576d2a4f.jpgScreenshot_20220626-074311_Firefox.jpg.79b22bba010f47334fbe35775991186e.jpg

 

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IsaacTheFossilMan

I saw this piece go up on sale!

 

It's Sigilmassasaurus aff. brevicollis, (aff. meaning species affinis, or something that looks like this species, but isn't that, perhaps because of indecisive ID, or potentially, a new, undescribed species).

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IsaacTheFossilMan
17 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

Sigilmassasaurus is SpinosauruscretresA reappraisal of African spinosaurines - ScienceDirect.pdf 336.99 kB · 1 download

 

naturally not the article itself,which is subscribed content,which is a pity,of course

 

Interesting. Not 2 years prior to this, Thomas Arden et al. concluded that it was a valid genus, forming the tribe/clade Spinosaurini within Spinosaurinae. Then Smyth et al. in 2020 showed that they were synonymous, and then, AGAIN(!), McFeeters showed, using new evidence, namely a mid-cervical vertebra belonging to a creature within Spinosaurini, and compared it to the most recent composite of Spinosaurus aegyptiacus, getting unusual results.

 

Rather than fitting within the morphology of S. aegyptiacus, the vertebra showed a confusing mix of traits. If it were to be fitted within S. a., the compact centrum would suggest it to belong in C4, however, the neural arch laminae would suggest C5/6. Even stranger, looking at the hypapophysis, a rounded tuberosity was observed, which is weird, to say the least. It wasn't synonymous with a ventral keel, and has been unknown in any other specimen, giving evidence that it may be a new taxa, after all. And, finally, a non-posterially overhanging extension on the postzygapophysis was present, also unknown in Kem Kem spinosaurid mid-cervicals. A link to this paper can be found here.

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doushantuo

New mid-cervical vertebral morphotype of Spinosauridae from the Kem Kem Group of Morocco

Bradley McFeeters

McFeeters, B. (2021). New mid-cervical vertebral morphotype of Spinosauridae from the Kem Kem Group of Morocco. Vertebrate Anatomy Morphology Palaeontology, 8(1). https://doi.org/10.18435/vamp29370

1202215003_McFeeters2021spinosaur.pdf

 

Isaac,it turns out we were simultaneously looking at the same thing:D

 

Edited by doushantuo
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doushantuo

Yoú're barking up the wrong tree ,BTW.

edit: in the sense that I am very weary of the pitfalls of dinosaur systematics. 

I'm too aware that dinosaur taxonomy is in essence parataxonomy,with people throwing synapomorphies at each other like frisbees

Edited by doushantuo
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IsaacTheFossilMan
6 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

Isaac,it turns out we were similtaneously looking at the same thing:D


I beat you to it! :BigSmile:

 

image.png.460c7794bbbe1bdf0edbde8cdd630ce2.png\
 

Here's the enigmatic vertebra from McFeeter's study, and here is a standard one:

 

spinosaurus-sp.jpg

I can't find a better image, unfortunately...

 

 

 

Edited by IsaacTheFossilMan
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IsaacTheFossilMan
2 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

Yoú're barking up the wrong tree ,BTW.

 

I don't quite understand what you mean :)

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IsaacTheFossilMan

Found one, from an old thread by @LordTrilobite

 

Kem Kem Vertebrae ID Thread - Fossil ID - The Fossil Forum

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doushantuo

What i mean is that the finer taxonomical details are to me, probably the least interesting part of dinosaur paleobiology

Nice to see the inferior oolite looks to be your your stomping ground,btw

 

Edited by doushantuo
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doushantuo

soem of you may like:

 

New spinosaurids from the Wessex Formation (Early Cretaceous,UK) and the European origins of Spinosauridae
Chris T. Barker, David W. E. Hone, Darren Naish, Andrea Cau, Jeremy A. F. Lockwood,
Brian Foster, Claire E. Clarkin, Philipp Schneider & Neil J. Gostling
 

s41598-021-97870-8.pdf

Edited by doushantuo
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IsaacTheFossilMan
5 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

What i mean is that the finer taxonomical details are to me, probably the least interesting part of dinosaur paleobiology

Nice to see the inferior oolite looks to be your your stomping ground,btw

 

 

I can understand that! I love looking into the teeny tiny details, of course, coming from a more micro side... Indeed, the inferior oolite is where I belong!

Cheers bud! What's your forte?

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doushantuo

You really want to know?

edit: the answer might surprise you

Edited by doushantuo
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IsaacTheFossilMan
8 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

You really want to know?

edit: the answer might surprise you

Yeah!

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doushantuo

earth science

Period ,fullstop,end of sentence.

In order to understand Earth , I read everything.

Please take that literally.

Look at how and what i post,and you will understand.

 

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IsaacTheFossilMan
9 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

earth science

Period ,fullstop,end of sentence.

In order to understand Earth , I read everything.

Please take that literally.

Look at how and what i post,and you will understand.

 

 

Nice! I come from a physics, maths and computer science background, but will be studying a Masters in palaeontology soon!

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Troodon

I always enjoy reading new papers on Spinosaurids to see if those from Morocco are discussed and got a chuckle when I first read it.   Barker et al. paper figure 7 shows multiple Spinosaurinae in Africa none of which are S. aegyptiacus.  Makes this statement "Moreover, a better understanding of North African  spinosaurine relationships requires the discovery of more complete individuals regardless."   Makes sense, so identification of isolated material can be very problematic.

 

381573287_Screenshot_20220626-090939_WriteonPDF.thumb.jpg.1f830503dea9561d74544a0c01302365.jpg

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doushantuo

yeah ,the mixture of cladistics and vicariance biogeography has me in stitches everytime,as well

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