North Sulfur River - Unknown Coprolite ?

[Metafossical]

 

Thus far, 18 fossils have  been ID in my first four posts.  Thanks to all the professionals here at TFF for taking the time to ID so many fossils.  I’ve got a bunch more.

THANKS ! 

~

 

I found what appears to be a coprolite in the same strata that I’ve found most of the other fossils.  I picked this one up, tossed it back, then picked it up again and decided to keep it because I read that if you don’t recognize it or think it might be different in some way, keep it  . . . might be somethin’.

 

I read up on the Dutchess of Dookie and I’ve been to her web site and reviewed the coprolites there, didn’t see anything like this one.

 

 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

Seems rather irregular for a coprolite too me as it doesn't have any of the overall smooth texture I'm used to seeing in marine coprolites from the UK , France, Morocco or Germany. That having been said, I do have a bit of trouble identifying coprolites from the NSR sometimes, so I can't fully rule out this being a coprolite either. However, since it lacks both twist and flattened shape, moreover not having clear inclusions (that is, unless the whole thing turns out to be one-and-all inclusions), I'd say this is something like a conglomerate stone. In fact, it looks very similar to the ironstone concretion I posted as a reference below. But lets ask @GeschWhat and @MarcoSr as to their opinion...

 

(source)

Edited July 10, 2022 by pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

[MarcoSr]

8 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Seems rather irregular for a coprolite too me as it doesn't have any of the overall smooth texture I'm used to seeing in marine coprolites from the UK , France, Morocco or Germany. That having been said, I do have a bit of trouble identifying coprolites from the NSR sometimes, so I can't fully rule out this being a coprolite either. However, since it lacks both twist and flattened shape, moreover not having clear inclusions (that is, unless the whole thing turns out to be one-and-all inclusions), I'd say this is something like a conglomerate stone. In fact, it looks very similar to the ironstone concretion I posted as a reference below. But lets ask @GeschWhat and @MarcoSr as to their opinion...

 

(source)

 

Looks 100% geologic to me, not a coprolite.

 

Marco Sr.

[GeschWhat]

I'm with @MarcoSr.  I don't think this is a coprolite, but it does give off an ichnofossil vibe. Prehistoric cluster of licorice snaps?

Edited July 14, 2022 by GeschWhat
Changed my mind

[Harry Pristis]

How unusual!  If it were a coprolite, I can imagine it being stream-worn until the hard inclusions slowed the process.  Was there more of this material where you recovered this example?

 

It might be useful to break down a bit of this material to try to identify the hard inclusions.  It might enable you to decide if this is a coprolite from a durophage, or some other fossil phenomenon.

[BobWill]

When you examine the bits of material in the rock you should try to determine whether it might be the undigested remains of a meal. That seems unlikely in this case. When you consider the shape, the question is "how easily would this have passed."

[Metafossical]

On 7/10/2022 at 5:37 AM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Seems rather irregular for a coprolite too me as it doesn't have any of the overall smooth texture I'm used to seeing in marine coprolites from the UK , France, Morocco or Germany. That having been said, I do have a bit of trouble identifying coprolites from the NSR sometimes, so I can't fully rule out this being a coprolite either. However, since it lacks both twist and flattened shape, moreover not having clear inclusions (that is, unless the whole thing turns out to be one-and-all inclusions), I'd say this is something like a conglomerate stone. In fact, it looks very similar to the ironstone concretion I posted as a reference below. But lets ask @GeschWhat and @MarcoSr as to their opinion...

 

(source)

 

On 7/10/2022 at 2:17 PM, MarcoSr said:

 

Looks 100% geologic to me, not a coprolite.

 

Marco Sr.

 

On 7/14/2022 at 7:45 PM, Harry Pristis said:

How unusual!  If it were a coprolite, I can imagine it being stream-worn until the hard inclusions slowed the process.  Was there more of this material where you recovered this example?

 

It might be useful to break down a bit of this material to try to identify the hard inclusions.  It might enable you to decide if this is a coprolite from a durophage, or some other fossil phenomenon.

 

On 7/15/2022 at 7:59 AM, BobWill said:

When you examine the bits of material in the rock you should try to determine whether it might be the undigested remains of a meal. That seems unlikely in this case. When you consider the shape, the question is "how easily would this have passed."

 

 

Thank you all for your replies.

 

 

 

Sorry I haven’t replied sooner.

 

I’ve been reading some interesting papers, reviewing historical maps, comparing and reviewing mosasaur anatomical diagrams and pics, taking photos of fossils to post and preparing for the next fossil hunt. In short, fossils on the brain.

Looking forward to the next fossil hunt  . .

 

~

 

The very first fossils I found were clam shells.  They were easy to spot because the “original mother of  pearl” luminesced in the sunlight.  I found a pouch full.  Shortly thereafter I found mosasaur jaw fragments in the same strata.

 

I thought that mosasaur must have been eating clams.  Why waste energy chasing fish around when you can browse the sea floor for clams, oysters, ammonites, baculites and other easy prey.  I think the “nob” end of the Tylosaurus jaw was used to sense and dislodge mollusks and the extra set of teeth were a natural selection shell crusher. 

 

What we see in what I believe is a coprolite, is clam remains - crushed shells and flattened excurrent and incurrent siphons.  Here is a link to a pic of a similar coprolite  here. 

Attached for your perusal are pics of clams and an ammonite found in the creek.  I have also included a diagram of a clam showing siphons and a pic of the extra set of teeth. 

 

[Al Dente]

13 minutes ago, Metafossical said:

The very first fossils I found were clam shells.  They were easy to spot because the “original mother of  pearl” luminesced in the sunlight.  I found a pouch full. 

These look like modern mussels.

[MarcoSr]

2 hours ago, Metafossical said:

 

 Here is a link to a pic of a similar coprolite  here. 

 

 

 

The coprolite you reference is a croc coprolite.  It does not have inclusions like your specimen.  Crocs have/had extremely strong stomach acid that dissolves/dissolved the bones.  Croc coprolites can have hair and feather traces, however.  Croc coprolites do have a very rough, irregular surface and can have pinch marks.  Below is a croc coprolite (3.75 inches x 2 inches) that I collected from the Paleocene of Maryland, showing the rough, irregular surface and pinch marks (circled in red).

 

 

 

 

EDIT:  You might check out the below link to see examples of some Cretaceous marine coprolites from Kansas:

 

 

http://oceansofkansas.com/coprolite.html

 

 

Marco Sr.

Edited July 23, 2022 by MarcoSr
Added link to coprolites

[Al Dente]

1 hour ago, Metafossical said:

Attached please find a couple of in situ pics.  The strata below the mussels is the Eagle Ford.  The strata above contains said mussels.  I've got em' dated about 90 million years ago, late Turonian.  Once again, I am not a scientist, I'm a fossil hunter. 

Nice photos. I’ve not been to the area, so take this with a grain of salt. It is my experience that outcrops along rivers usually have a gravel layer on top of the formation with river sediments on top of the gravel. The gravel layer usually contains a mix of fossils from the formation below and more recent (Pleistocene and younger) material from the river.

 

I found this discussion on shells found in NSR- http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/82767-modern-or-fossil-clam/

[BobWill]

We do find fossilized clams in NSR too but we don't recognize them by looking for broken, rock-like chunks. We can see either the growth lines the formed on the outside of the shell or else calcite crystals that result from the preservation of pieces of shell. The rocks in your conglomerates are neither, and siphons do not preserve, only sometimes the space where one was.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

17 hours ago, Metafossical said:

I thought that mosasaur must have been eating clams.  Why waste energy chasing fish around when you can browse the sea floor for clams, oysters, ammonites, baculites and other easy prey.  I think the “nob” end of the Tylosaurus jaw was used to sense and dislodge mollusks and the extra set of teeth were a natural selection shell crusher. 

 

Is an interesting hypothesis for the use of the tylosaur rostral nob, and it may be that it used it to hunt for fish that way. However, the tooth morphology and jaw structure wouldn't work for shell crushing as both are too weak for that. Have a look at the genus Globidens for species that did crush shells and molluscs.

 

16 hours ago, Metafossical said:

Once again, I am not a scientist, I'm a fossil hunter.

 

The funny thing here is, though, that fossil hunters are by definition scientists. How else to know where to hunt or how to interpret what you find? You're also likely to be the first person to see a fossil in millions of years, adding that element of traditionally scientific discovery. You might not be aware of it now, but this awareness will grow the more you hunt...

[Metafossical]

On 7/23/2022 at 6:19 AM, MarcoSr said:

 

The coprolite you reference is a croc coprolite.  It does not have inclusions like your specimen.  Crocs have/had extremely strong stomach acid that dissolves/dissolved the bones.  Croc coprolites can have hair and feather traces, however.  Croc coprolites do have a very rough, irregular surface and can have pinch marks.  Below is a croc coprolite (3.75 inches x 2 inches) that I collected from the Paleocene of Maryland, showing the rough, irregular surface and pinch marks (circled in red).

 

 

 

 

EDIT:  You might check out the below link to see examples of some Cretaceous marine coprolites from Kansas:

 

 

http://oceansofkansas.com/coprolite.html

 

 

 

Marco Sr.

 

Thank you for your post.  It would be interesting to see other views of your coprolite.

 

I’m currently reading a paper titled, Early Cretaceous to Paleocene Paleogeography of the Western Interior Seaway:  The Interaction of Eustasy and Tectonism.  You can find it here.  On page 31 is Figure 5 showing US Western Interior Inoceramid Interval Zones and US Western Interior Ammonite Ranger Zones. 

 

The Figure 5 chart shows the Inoceramid for the time period is Inoceramus dimidius  . . . maybe Inoceramus perplexus.  I have not found much on Inoceramus dimidus.   There are definitive photos of Inoceramus perplexus.  You can find both here.

 

The Inoceramid in question appears to be Inoceramus perplexus.  Interestingly, I took a photo of an impression of a Inoceramus in the Eagle Ford.  I’ve provided two photos, one upside down. Looks like Inoceramus perplexus.    

 

The Slattery chart also shows the Ammonite for the period are Scaphites warreni,  Scaphites ferronesis . . . maybe Scaphites whitfeldi. I figure, if we can’t identify the Inoceramid maybe we can cross reference and identify the Ammonite.  Interestingly, I took a photo of an ammonite not long ago, same creek, same formation.  It appears to be Scaphites whitfeldi.

 

So far I’ve identified the inoceramid, ammonite and mosasaur for the time period. (I’m working on the rudist and Exogyra). Did the mosasaur eat the inoceramid and did I find a coprolite from the mosasaur?  I’m workin’ on it.

 

12 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Is an interesting hypothesis for the use of the tylosaur rostral nob, and it may be that it used it to hunt for fish that way. However, the tooth morphology and jaw structure wouldn't work for shell crushing as both are too weak for that. Have a look at the genus Globidens for species that did crush shells and molluscs. The funny thing here is, though, that fossil hunters are by definition scientists. How else to know where to hunt or how to interpret what you find? You're also likely to be the first person to see a fossil in millions of years, adding that element of traditionally scientific discovery. You might not be aware of it now, but this awareness will grow the more you hunt...

Thank you for your post and kind words.

 

I find your posts enlightening and motivating

 

I don't believe I'm a scientist in the true sense of the word as I lack formal training.  I have spent countless hours and love reading the scientific papers, studying the maps and studying the anatomical diagrams and pics (reading up on durophagous mosasaurs and I'll take a look at Globidens). I love the research in general and even more putting all the pieces of the research together and pinpointing where those fossils might be on the map - that's the fun part and the big challenge.  Can't wait to get back out there.

 

Once again, thank you for your post and kind words.

 

On 7/14/2022 at 7:45 PM, Harry Pristis said:

How unusual!  If it were a coprolite, I can imagine it being stream-worn until the hard inclusions slowed the process.  Was there more of this material where you recovered this example?

It might be useful to break down a bit of this material to try to identify the hard inclusions.  It might enable you to decide if this is a coprolite from a durophage, or some other fossil phenomenon.

 

i wanted to once again give double thanks to you for your post. 

 

Your post led me to the words “durophagous mosasaur coprolite ."   I'm onto the trail of the nature of that fossil. Should be some fun and interesting research.

 

Thanks again  . . .

 

[MarcoSr]

1 hour ago, Metafossical said:

 

Thank you for your post.  It would be interesting to see other views of your coprolite.

 

 

I've donated 30,000+ marine coprolites and still have probably 15,000+ marine coprolites.  Unfortunately, this is one that I donated.

 

There are multiple papers and poster presentations on these donated coprolites.  Below is a poster presentation on Eocene marine coprolites from Virginia that I donated.

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr.