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Shellseeker

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6 months ago, hunting with a partner who found this tooth that I initially identified as Rhino. See those crossing lines in the thin enamel of the 1st two photos. I had seen that in other Rhino tooth enamel found in this location.

IMG_3810ce.jpg.4805ebe59d69f5b59a36d7bc8fae9a05.jpgIMG_3808ce.jpg.83fd96e1d799e851d0286ffdd55aa008.jpgIMG_3811ce.jpg.9b767c23740a7a5fb16054dabe8dc325.jpgIMG_3813ce.jpg.5b51bd01f1c8c241c095711a7deedb90.jpg

 

Before asking TFF for an Id on any fossil,  I search TFF for similar fossils and found a thread where @Harry Pristis identified a very similar tooth as Cow or Bison. I never put this one up for identification on TFF.

Today, I was commenting on this FossilID thread posted by @Done Drillin

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/124645-peace-river-id-help/&tab=comments#comment-1358464

and noted that Harry Identified a very similar tooth once again as Cow or Bison..

 

The last find appears to be a bovid p3 . . . the enamel striations suggest bison.

2011152448_cowpremolarsA.JPG.bd0846653eaa165ae979236a8d418cc0.JPG

 

I have studied the enamel and see the striations on the outside of the enamel of Done Drillin's tooth,  and not on the domestic cow example above.

Here is an example of lines in the enamel ...

IMG_5577Rhino_Closeup.JPG.941968b884a8494811323e841cf856a7.JPG

 

So,  now I am wondering on the identification of this tooth.  I have thought for 6 months that it is a Bison premolar.

Do Bison and Rhino have similar lines within the enamel of their teeth?  and are those lines missing in modern cow?

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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I don't know what you mean by lines within the enamel.  I see hairline cracks in the enamel of your bovid p4 -- is that what you mean?  Certainly, cracks can occur in any tooth.

 

305700071_rhinomandE.JPG.4aff38486a249f6f507e88b8325fd00e.JPG

http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

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45 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

I don't know what you mean by lines within the enamel.  I see hairline cracks in the enamel of your bovid p4 -- is that what you mean?  Certainly, cracks can occur in any tooth.

 

Harry, I believe Jack is talking about these lines here:
IMG_3810ce.jpg.4805ebe59d69f5b59a36d7bc8fae9a05.jpg.96f202858134560e3d3079b7ebbbdd6d.jpg
Which don't look like cracks (Not that they aren't cracks - they just look very uniform) to me?

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Fossils? I dig it. :meg:

 

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2 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

I don't know what you mean by lines within the enamel.  I see hairline cracks in the enamel of your bovid p4 -- is that what you mean?  Certainly, cracks can occur in any tooth.

Sorry Harry, I was not clear, Daniel is correct.  Not only do I see them in multiple T. proterum teeth finds, but these lines on the top of , within, and thru the enamel,  I also find on T. proterum teeth in the FLMNH Paleontology Database.  Lines are much more visible in my find and black enamel example above.

EnamelLines.JPG.bc566ce1c765c92fcf798594ab810ef2.JPG

vp_uf027164occp4lowerright.thumb.jpg.152ea27c7696deddfe67b9ec6bb29b86.jpg

 

I am interested in any distinctive marking that allows Florida Fossil tooth identification.

They occur in T. proterum, but what about other Florida Rhinos like Menoceras Barbouri.nd

 

I have not yet found an example of any Bovid and/or Bison that exhibilts such lines, except for the one I found and posted above.  I am wondering of the lines only exist in Bison and not in the modern cow.

 

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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I see now what you are seeing.  I have dozens of Teleoceras teeth, mostly from the Withlacoochee River.  A quick survey, without magnification, didn't reveal any of these serrations.  I looked at a double handful of Menoceras teeth with the same result. If the serrations are microscopic -- revealed in close-up images -- I think they may be part of the crystal structure of the bioapatite (enamel).  Perhaps the structure is illuminated in some teeth based on local acid-etching.  I think it's unlikely that rhinos have enamel that is structurally much different from horse teeth or even bovid teeth.  But, it's an interesting idea.

http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

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37 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

I see now what you are seeing.  I have dozens of Teleoceras teeth, mostly from the Withlacoochee River.  A quick survey, without magnification, didn't reveal any of these serrations.  I looked at a double handful of Menoceras teeth with the same result. If the serrations are microscopic -- revealed in close-up images -- I think they may be part of the crystal structure of the bioapatite (enamel).  Perhaps the structure is illuminated in some teeth based on local acid-etching.  I think it's unlikely that rhinos have enamel that is structurally much different from horse teeth or even bovid teeth.  But, it's an interesting idea.

Harry,

I was dancing on water with my speculations on minimal facts. Often I realize that I risk overstating but fortunately, that is balanced by TFF experts such as yourself.  Recognizing that there was much I did not understand,  I sent a query to Richard almost immediately after my last post. 

He answered quickly and I certainly learned something new.

Quote

There is a difference between the lines found in rhino enamel (which is caused by an unique internal arrangement of the hydroxyapatite crystals in the tooth enamel, technically called vertical Hunter-Schreger bands) and the scratches found on the chewing surface of grazing animals such as bison and horse (which are caused by chewing on small pieces of quartz). In the former the lines will be spaced a uniform distance apart and will be found all along the occlusal surface). The latter will be much more irregular. I think what you are seeing in Steve’s tooth are scratches and not vertical Hunter-Schreger bands. But the resolution of the image is not high enough for me to magnify it many times to clearly see the lines. So I cannot be 100% certain. Moreover, the shape of the enamel in the specimen does appear to be more like that found in a bison rather than a rhino.

Richard

 

I do not have the subject tooth in hand.   I will attempt higher resolution photos once I do have it.  For now, I will consider it the most likely resolution; Bison p4.  Thanks for your help.  Jack

 

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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For comparative purposes, here is a rhino tooth from the Miocene gravels in South Texas.

IMG_20220710_192155785.jpg

 

IMG_20220710_192306141_HDR.jpg

 

IMG_20220710_192346646.jpg

 

Note the patterns in the broken crown.

IMG_20220710_193307808_HDR.jpg

The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true.  -  JJ

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6 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

For comparative purposes, here is a rhino tooth from the Miocene gravels in South Texas.

It turns out, John, that the "vertical Hunter-Schreger bands" under consideration here are optical phenomenon.  Think of shadows of crystal structure within the translucent enamel of the crown.  The crystalline structure can be deconstructed to isolate the bands (but not likely on the river bottom). 

It appears that most mammals -- all that have been discussed in this thread -- have these bands in their teeth.  To detect them, I suspect you need clean surfaces and the correct lighting and maybe some magnification.  Anyway, that's how I understand the phenomenon.

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http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

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10 hours ago, JohnJ said:

For comparative purposes, here is a rhino tooth from the Miocene gravels in South Texas.

Thank you, John.  comparatives are greatly appreciated. I thinking your tooth is Menoceras .sp. In the fossil world , Florida and Texas seem to share selective fauna from the miocene. I only possess one Menoceras bourboni .  It also shows the bands.

IMG_6410.thumb.JPEG.2821d27098f77016be2ab01464252da0.JPEGM3_Menoceras_Barbouri_enamel.JPG.44d5d9c2da835de6d1670ad29b0c151c.JPG

I am learning how to use a macro lens that collected dust until now.

10 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

It appears that most mammals -- all that have been discussed in this thread -- have these bands in their teeth.  To detect them, I suspect you need clean surfaces and the correct lighting and maybe some magnification.  Anyway, that's how I understand the phenomenon.

For most part, I agree but would like proof. All of my 15-20 examples of T. proterum teeth are pristine and the lines easily detectable under lighting/magnification.  Here is an upper M3.

IMG_6402.thumb.JPEG.8f06776c5253004bdea15cd15d40e267.JPEG

 

I have reached the point of believing that Florida Rhino has these lines,  more easily detectable in some Rhino species than others.

I think other Florida mammal fossils likely have these lines (mostly due to my one example up for identification) but I lack clarity.  It will be hard to accept that Horse (Equus or Tridactly)  has the lines versus scratches Richard references. I have looked closely at the enamels of horse and can not recall ever seeing lines like these.

 

This one below seems to have the lines, not scratches AND it seems to be Bison not Rhino.. I need more examples of Bison/Cow that have the "vertical Hunter-Schreger bands"

IMG_3810ce.jpg.4805ebe59d69f5b59a36d7bc8fae9a05.jpg.96f202858134560e3d3079b7ebbbdd6d.jpg

 

Hmmm..Where is that @digit?  He knows things about Florida Rhino and Horse and Bison and Cows

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The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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Diversity and Evolution of Hunter-Schreger Band Configuration in Tooth Enamel of Perissodactyl Mammals (bioone.org)

 

Nature’s design solutions in dental enamel: Uniting high strength and extreme damage resistance - ScienceDirect

"While most large placental mammals (e.g., humans [92], [93], giant pandas [12] and cattle [42]) exhibit horizontal Hunter-Schreger bands in at least part of the schmelzmuster, rhinoceros have developed a unique specialisation known as vertical Hunter-Schreger bands [94]. In vertical Hunter-Schreger bands, prisms exhibit a strong inclination towards the EDJ in vertical section and no angle in the transversal view. The direction of the inclination (“upwards” or “downwards”) alternates in bands, resulting in vertically oriented Hunter-Schreger bands. These are visible as an alternating pattern in cross-sectional view. Transitional regions between the bands in which the prisms are oriented horizontally as in radial enamel are common [94]. In both, horizontal and vertical Hunter-Schreger bands, bifurcations of the bands are common, and prisms may change orientation, moving from one band into the next."

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http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

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2 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Hmmm..Where is that @digit?  He knows things about Florida Rhino and Horse and Bison and Cows

I've pulled a lot of cow teeth (and a precious few bison) from the Peace River. I have had the opportunity to prep some late Miocene rhino skulls from the Montbrook site but I haven't paid close attention to the details of the enamel while cleaning. The Teleoceras skulls are presently back at the prep lab in Dickinson Hall and I'll be working in the Fantastic Fossils exhibit at the display museum (Powell Hall) through the end of the year so I won't have easy access to them for some time.

 

Vertical Hunter-Schreger bands are something new to me and an interesting avenue of arcane fossil knowledge to explore. :)

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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53 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

Diversity and Evolution of Hunter-Schreger Band Configuration in Tooth Enamel of Perissodactyl Mammals (bioone.org)

Thank you , Harry.   VERY informative. It is a lot to absorb just thru the scanning I just did. It will take a lot more effort on my part to understand the science.

It seems to be saying that the candidates for finding fossil teeth containing the "vertical Hunter-Schreger bands" are limited within Florida to Rhino, Tapir,  and Horse (specifically Equus).  I am not stating that as a fact,  just an interpretation from my quick perusal of the PDF.

 

I will go hunting with Steve this week,  which will give me a chance to take some macro photos.

Will spend some time reading the PDF more thouroughly,   and seeking Tapir and Equus with HSB.    Jack

 

 

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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53 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

It seems to be saying that the candidates for finding fossil teeth containing the "vertical Hunter-Schreger bands" are limited within Florida to Rhino, Tapir,  and Horse (specifically Equus).

No, that's not what the paper implies.  According to the study, only rhinos have the vertical bands.  Horses have transverse bands.

"Equidae.—Pfretzschner (1994) observed transverse HSB overlain by radial enamel in molars of Hyracotherium and Palaeotherium. Our own observations on various incisors, premolars and molars of Hyracotherium (sensu lato) confirm this orientation, but HSB are partially developed only weakly. In Mesohippus all investigated teeth show only transverse HSB (Fig. 5A). The outer layer of radial enamel presumably has been lost. Prominent perikymata may hide the HSB, but the refraction on cracks confirms the transverse orientation. In Hippotherium and Equus the transverse orientation of the HSB was confirmed.

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http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page

 

What seest thou else

In the dark backward and abysm of time?

---Shakespeare, The Tempest

 

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Harry,

Now I have read the PDF...  definitely worthwhile.  Here are some of the Highlights for other TFF readers.

Hunter_Schreger_Bands_4yellow.JPG.16761b0a6acfbcbd85ef54fa397ddaa8.JPGHunter_Schreger_Bands_Age.jpg.3a59175789f8b00ca3bff193d0d7fb81.jpg

 

 I already have examples of Equid transverse HSB in photos,  and think it will not be too difficult to get curved HSB from my Tapir photos.

 

The most interesting to me is Vertical HSB which primarily exists in Rhino. I have excellent photos for Teleoceras, Floridaceras, Menoceras,

Vertical_HSB.jpg.8c91e79358f167f111f1fcadc6d6d1ab.jpg

My best example is the T. proterum one below because it shows the Vertical HSB going up the sides and across the top of the exposed occlusal enamel.

http://www.thefossilforum.com/uploads/monthly_2022_07/IMG_5577Rhino_Closeup.JPG.941968b884a8494811323e841cf856a7.JPG

 

I am waiting  (Friday likely) to take higher resolution photos on my original find to send back to Richard Hulbert. Here are the 2 photos I will attempt to enhance. Both seem to have HSB lines rather than more random scratches. However, this 1st photo seems to be showing Transverse HSB, and the 2nd Vertical. Confusing.

IMG_3810ce.jpg.269eb4040a146b9d9a00bc914e0e6143.jpg

IMG_3813ce3.jpg.559bb42415d53028f90056f66a90d3b6.jpg

 

The White Queen  ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast"

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