Mosasaur articulated spine? Pierre shale sd quarry

[Slow Walker]

2ft long block. found weathered and near other marine reptile and fish fossils. Couldn't find any more parts to this. 

Is this a tail? Seems small compare to other mosasaur verts I find. 

Edited July 21, 2022 by Slow Walker

[hadrosauridae]

I cant help ID the species, but WOW what a find!  You wouldnt be able to pry me away from a site where that was sitting on the surface!  That is going to need a lot of consolidation and very careful prep work.

[Slow Walker]

9 minutes ago, hadrosauridae said:

I cant help ID the species, but WOW what a find!  You wouldnt be able to pry me away from a site where that was sitting on the surface!  That is going to need a lot of consolidation and very careful prep work.

I just started the fossil hobby this year so can you explain why it needs glue and prep? It seems stable in that rock. 

[hadrosauridae]

6 minutes ago, Slow Walker said:

I just started the fossil hobby this year so can you explain why it needs glue and prep? It seems stable in that rock. 

 

Trust me, its not stable.  The verts have been heavily weathered across the exposed tops, exposing the cancellous bone tissue.  Its very fragile.  If you run your finger over it, you'll find tiny bits breaking off at each touch.  Now add in yearly humidity and temperature cycles inside your home and that fossil will eventually (and I predict quickly) begin falling apart.  Even the most solid seeming fossilized bones require some consolidation and attention to ensure a long life on display.

 

If you are this new to collecting fossils, I personally wouldnt recommend trying to prep this yourself.  This is going to need special tools, supplies and magnification to do it right.

[Slow Walker]

10 minutes ago, hadrosauridae said:

 

Trust me, its not stable.  The verts have been heavily weathered across the exposed tops, exposing the cancellous bone tissue.  Its very fragile.  If you run your finger over it, you'll find tiny bits breaking off at each touch.  Now add in yearly humidity and temperature cycles inside your home and that fossil will eventually (and I predict quickly) begin falling apart.  Even the most solid seeming fossilized bones require some consolidation and attention to ensure a long life on display.

 

If you are this new to collecting fossils, I personally wouldnt recommend trying to prep this yourself.  This is going to need special tools, supplies and magnification to do it right.

How thin of a consolidate would I need? I have been mixing my own butvar b76. Should I blow it clean of dust and add some? I just want to get it good enough so I can store it long term. 

[hadrosauridae]

% mix is more of a personal preference thing than an absolute.  I know some others here like about a 2% for a penetrating consolidation.  I like 5% myself.  You will likely need a lot because of the size of the block.  If you aren't going to do any prep, you need to paint the WHOLE thing, not just the exposed verts.  Look at the block.  It already has huge fault lines running through it.  I can't imagine why is hasnt fractured already.  Pierre shale is NOT a strong substrate.

 

Personal recommendation here; paint the top surface with consolidate.  Apply liberally and give it a day to evaporate off the acetone.  A strong desk lamp over the top will actually help the process.  But dont move it around.  Set the block, paint it, let it cure.  After that, CAREFULLY flip it onto a foam block, and put a plaster jacket on the back side and wrap the edges good.  Then you'll have it decently stabilized. 

[Slow Walker]

55 minutes ago, hadrosauridae said:

% mix is more of a personal preference thing than an absolute.  I know some others here like about a 2% for a penetrating consolidation.  I like 5% myself.  You will likely need a lot because of the size of the block.  If you aren't going to do any prep, you need to paint the WHOLE thing, not just the exposed verts.  Look at the block.  It already has huge fault lines running through it.  I can't imagine why is hasnt fractured already.  Pierre shale is NOT a strong substrate.

 

Personal recommendation here; paint the top surface with consolidate.  Apply liberally and give it a day to evaporate off the acetone.  A strong desk lamp over the top will actually help the process.  But dont move it around.  Set the block, paint it, let it cure.  After that, CAREFULLY flip it onto a foam block, and put a plaster jacket on the back side and wrap the edges good.  Then you'll have it decently stabilized. 

I think it's more stable than you think. It's from the Pierre shale formation but it's not incased in it. I think that's the main Pierre shale spots wearing off you see on top but it's in stronger shale and under that is iron something that's very hard. I removed a few inches off the back to lighten it. I did narrow down the layer it came from but couldn't find the name of it. 

Should I dry it good before adding glue? 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

3 hours ago, Slow Walker said:

Should I dry it good before adding glue? 

 

Yeah, always make sure a piece you intend to consolidate is dry through and through - it'll help with the penetration. But spectacular find! Finding articulated material like this is rare, moreover from something like the Pierre Shale...! And you say you've just started collecting! 

 

It does appear that the vertebrae are mosasaur, as the vertebrae appear procoelous (concave towards the front, convex at the back). A scale bar would be good to help us get an impression of the size of the vertebrae, but based on proportions, your observation the vertebrae are small, and lack of visible rib attachment sites (except for possibly some subcentral/ventral ones I think I might be seeing), I'd say terminal caudal vertebrae is a good guess... Again, awesome find! 

 

(source)

 

(source)

 

Depending on whether you made the find this month and whether you still intend to have it prepared, I think this is a good candidate for Fossil of the Month.

[Slow Walker]

6 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

Yeah, always make sure a piece you intend to consolidate is dry through and through - it'll help with the penetration. But spectacular find! Finding articulated material like this is rare, moreover from something like the Pierre Shale...! And you say you've just started collecting! 

 

It does appear that the vertebrae are mosasaur, as the vertebrae appear procoelous (concave towards the front, convex at the back). A scale bar would be good to help us get an impression of the size of the vertebrae, but based on proportions, your observation the vertebrae are small, and lack of visible rib attachment sites (except for possibly some subcentral/ventral ones I think I might be seeing), I'd say terminal caudal vertebrae is a good guess... Again, awesome find! 

 

(source)

 

(source)

 

Depending on whether you made the find this month and whether you still intend to have it prepared, I think this is a good candidate for Fossil of the Month.

Thanks for the detail! So much to unpack. 

I have a room that gets hot during noon but not direct sun light. Would that work for drying? I heard if a fossil doesn't need glue then leave it natural. Is there a way I can tell if it is stable for long term? 

 

Those illustrations are great! I added a scale pic. I see some points coming off of some. Also so fossil not touching main spine. End of tail makes sense, thanks!

 

I found it 2 weeks ago. would I submit it myself? 

[Fin Lover]

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/forum/150-fossil-of-the-month/ is where you can enter it as Fossil of the Month on this forum.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

3 hours ago, Slow Walker said:

I found it 2 weeks ago. would I submit it myself?

 

42 minutes ago, Fin Lover said:

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/forum/150-fossil-of-the-month/ is where you can enter it as Fossil of the Month on this forum.

 

To enter your fossil as FotM, go to the below thread and follow the subforum's instructions by providing photographs, identification, geological context and date the find was made. You yourself are responsible for entering or not

 

3 hours ago, Slow Walker said:

Those illustrations are great! I added a scale pic. I see some points coming off of some. Also so fossil not touching main spine. End of tail makes sense, thanks!

 

Thanks! Glad I could help  And thanks for the photograph with the scale bar! Looks like the vertebrae are bigger than I thought they were. That makes it a bit more tricky to decide what mosasaur they could be from, which, I believe, could be either Mosasaurus or Tylosaurus, with the latter being the more likely setting as their frequency in the nearby Niobrara Formation. That having been said, vertebrae are, as in this case, often not diagnostic, so you'd have to take my identification with a grain of salt... The points coming off, if I get my orientation right, would be the neural some of the top of the vertebra.

 

3 hours ago, Slow Walker said:

So much to unpack. 

I have a room that gets hot during noon but not direct sun light. Would that work for drying? I heard if a fossil doesn't need glue then leave it natural. Is there a way I can tell if it is stable for long term? 

 

If say that'd be ideal. Typically drying could be done using the sun, a heat lamp or an oven, though much depends on the size of a specimen. Also, exposing your fossils to direct sunlight is never a good idea, as UV-radiation may damage them. A hot area outside of direct sunlight thus gets the best of both worlds - just as long as the air is dry and can suck up the moisture from your specimen. Keeping the piece away from UV would further be smart as the piece is fragile.

 

Whether to treat a specimen or not depends on a lot of things, amongst which the question of how fragile it is: sometimes a fossil is just too fragile and will crumble if you don't consolidate it; other fossils have better preservation and will last forever without consolidation. I think your specimen would benefit from being stabilised, though. Consultant may be applied to alter the look of a fossil too, by increasing its shine and darkening it a bit, whereas a good reason not to apply anything - even on fragile specimens would be if you intend to study them...

 

Hope this helps!

[jpc]

This is a great find.  

A lot of good advice above.  I agree that this rock looks like it just wants to fall apart.  I would also consolidate it all.  

I am curious as to what sort of quarry are you working in that has Pierre Shale bones in it?  Is it strictly a fossil quarry?  or is someone collecting something else in the Pierre Shale in SD?  Gypsum?

 

 

[Slow Walker]

2 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

 

To enter your fossil as FotM, go to the below thread and follow the subforum's instructions by providing photographs, identification, geological context and date the find was made. You yourself are responsible for entering or not

 

 

Thanks! Glad I could help  And thanks for the photograph with the scale bar! Looks like the vertebrae are bigger than I thought they were. That makes it a bit more tricky to decide what mosasaur they could be from, which, I believe, could be either Mosasaurus or Tylosaurus, with the latter being the more likely setting as their frequency in the nearby Niobrara Formation. That having been said, vertebrae are, as in this case, often not diagnostic, so you'd have to take my identification with a grain of salt... The points coming off, if I get my orientation right, would be the neural some of the top of the vertebra.

 

 

If say that'd be ideal. Typically drying could be done using the sun, a heat lamp or an oven, though much depends on the size of a specimen. Also, exposing your fossils to direct sunlight is never a good idea, as UV-radiation may damage them. A hot area outside of direct sunlight thus gets the best of both worlds - just as long as the air is dry and can suck up the moisture from your specimen. Keeping the piece away from UV would further be smart as the piece is fragile.

 

Whether to treat a specimen or not depends on a lot of things, amongst which the question of how fragile it is: sometimes a fossil is just too fragile and will crumble if you don't consolidate it; other fossils have better preservation and will last forever without consolidation. I think your specimen would benefit from being stabilised, though. Consultant may be applied to alter the look of a fossil too, by increasing its shine and darkening it a bit, whereas a good reason not to apply anything - even on fragile specimens would be if you intend to study them...

 

Hope this helps!

Thanks for all the helpful info! I'll give the consolidating a go. If I put a plaster backing on it should it have support in it? If so what kind? 

[Slow Walker]

1 hour ago, jpc said:

This is a great find.  

A lot of good advice above.  I agree that this rock looks like it just wants to fall apart.  I would also consolidate it all.  

I am curious as to what sort of quarry are you working in that has Pierre Shale bones in it?  Is it strictly a fossil quarry?  or is someone collecting something else in the Pierre Shale in SD?  Gypsum?

 

 

When I seen it I thought it would fall apart too but the hard back made it seem stable to lift without support. 

 

Not sure, relatives had something dug there. A lot of erosion there now. 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

2 minutes ago, Slow Walker said:

Thanks for all the helpful info! I'll give the consolidating a go. If I put a plaster backing on it should it have support in it? If so what kind? 

 

I've got little personal experience with plaster jacketing, but I believe the standard procedure is to first place a separation-layer on top of the fossil (aluminium foil is often used), following which layers of pieces of burlap soaked in plaster of Paris are applied. Much like fibreglass backing, this, in itself, should already provide a decent level of support when dry. However, if the piece is especially heavy or you're afraid it might break in half when lifted, you could interbed some thin wooden slats in the plaster jacket, making sure they're place level with respect to one another and that there's a layer of plaster below and sufficient amounts on top to fix the slats in place. But others might be better able to provide you with the information you need.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

2 minutes ago, Slow Walker said:

Not sure, relatives had something dug there. A lot of erosion there now. 

 

In that case it might be a good idea to regularly come back and check the spot. There might be more there waiting to erode

[Jared C]

Heck of a find!! Wow! There seems to be a lot of beginners luck on this forum 

 

Absolutely follow all the prep and glue advice you're receiving - I know it may seem excessive but you do not want a specimen like this to end up being your first negative learning experience. 

 

Also, I'd head back there, double time. Find where this came out of the ground and explore at least 3 feet further in every direction, giving the utmost attention to any potential bone grain. Move ground in segments of the biggest blocks you can manage. I don't know much about plastering your current specimen, but plastering anymore materiel you find could be worth it too.

 

Again, just plaster of paris and burlap bags cut into pieces. If you find more bone, dig an ample "trench" all around it, so that the bone block sits on a pedestal. Then, cover in plenty of aluminum foil and add the wet, plastered burlap on top of the foil. If the matrix you're working in is soft and crumbly enough (as it seems to be, which is why plaster might help here), then drive in long picks/screwdrivers/any metal bars underneath and use those to flip over the specimen quickly - if you flip it too slow the bone and matrix can spill out of their plaster casing.

 

If you think you can make it work with out the hassle of the plastering process, go for it, but assume that your specimen and the ground it's in is less stable than you think (because it always is )

 

What a way to get dunked into the hard work and gritty adventure that is paleontology! Please keep us updated!

Edited July 21, 2022 by Jared C
clarification

[Slow Walker]

4 hours ago, Jared C said:

Heck of a find!! Wow! There seems to be a lot of beginners luck on this forum 

 

Absolutely follow all the prep and glue advice you're receiving - I know it may seem excessive but you do not want a specimen like this to end up being your first negative learning experience. 

 

Also, I'd head back there, double time. Find where this came out of the ground and explore at least 3 feet further in every direction, giving the utmost attention to any potential bone grain. Move ground in segments of the biggest blocks you can manage. I don't know much about plastering your current specimen, but plastering anymore materiel you find could be worth it too.

 

Again, just plaster of paris and burlap bags cut into pieces. If you find more bone, dig an ample "trench" all around it, so that the bone block sits on a pedestal. Then, cover in plenty of aluminum foil and add the wet, plastered burlap on top of the foil. If the matrix you're working in is soft and crumbly enough (as it seems to be, which is why plaster might help here), then drive in long picks/screwdrivers/any metal bars underneath and use those to flip over the specimen quickly - if you flip it too slow the bone and matrix can spill out of their plaster casing.

 

If you think you can make it work with out the hassle of the plastering process, go for it, but assume that your specimen and the ground it's in is less stable than you think (because it always is )

 

What a way to get dunked into the hard work and gritty adventure that is paleontology! Please keep us updated!

I won't say beginners luck. I spent 200hr researching areas with fossils and relatives who'd be willing to let me collect on thier land before ever stepping outside. But I do feel like a beginner with the other stuff. 

 

I searched the area for hours only found that humerus and other fish fossils. l might go back there again after a few rain storms. 

 

Im starting to learn jacketing is a time saver in the long run. Gluing stuff after it breaks is a nightmare. 

 

I'll keep you up to date. Just need more vacation days :p 

[jpc]

we ALL need more vacation days, don't we

Have fun exploring that area.  You're getting some good stuff. 

[Slow Walker]

Other fish fossils found near this. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/125074-x-fish-tooth-pierre-shale-sd/

[Slow Walker]

 

On 7/21/2022 at 2:14 AM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Depending on whether you made the find this month and whether you still intend to have it prepared, I think this is a good candidate for Fossil of the Month.

I entered it into Fossil of the month. Also added better photos.