What is the definition of a “hubbell “type megalodon?

[Jerrychang]

Just acquired a small megalodon tooth, I’m not sure if it is a hubbell type meg?

The definition of hubbell is just ”heart shape and small” or is it has more specific definition?

[Meganeura]

So based on my readings a bit ago - Hubbell Megs are caused by birth defects. I’m not sure exactly what constitutes one as far as size goes - but your Meg looks quite normal to me.

You can see here that @Shellseeker found a Hubbell Meg semi-recently, that should give a good comparison point.
 

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Meganeura

[Al Dente]

I don't think birth defects are the reason for the shape. Modern Carcharodon carcharias also have deep U-shaped roots when they are juveniles. Here's a juvenile great white upper jaw from this site-https://shark-references.com/post/687

And here is the more flat roots of an adult great white from the elasmo.com website.

 

 

[Meganeura]

1 hour ago, Al Dente said:

I don't think birth defects are the reason for the shape. Modern Carcharodon carcharias also have deep U-shaped roots when they are juveniles. Here's a juvenile great white upper jaw from this site-https://shark-references.com/post/687

And here is the more flat roots of an adult great white from the elasmo.com website.

 

 

Is the root the definition behind Hubbell Megs? I was under the impression that it was specifically the root AND the heart-shaped blade.

So take this with a grain of salt as it's from the "Fossil Wiki", but was also the only source I could find for anything related to what causes Hubbell Megs:

""Hubbell teeth" are juvenile Carcharocles megalodon teeth from the Bone Valley phosphate of Florida. These heart-shaped teeth, often with root and cusp abnormalities, are sometimes referred to as "Hubbell teeth" after Gordon Hubbell.

A commonly accepted theory is that all Hubbell teeth, by definition, are deformed, probably as a result of nutritional deficiency as young sharks. The large majority of juvenile megalodon teeth are normal, miniatures more or less of the adult teeth.

There is some lag time involved between the deformation as a germ tooth and its development and deployment as a useful (though deformed) tooth. A nutritional deficiency could occur shortly after birth, resulting in Hubbell teeth weeks or months later.

The disorder that affects a small proportion of these juvenile sharks may arise from an ultimately fatal genetic problem (they don't eat enough because there is a birth defect). Or, it may be something that these young sharks survive when they find sufficient prey items (they stop producing deformed teeth when nutrition is adequate). For one reason or the other, we don't find large Hubbell teeth."

[Al Dente]

6 hours ago, Meganeura said:

Is the root the definition behind Hubbell Megs? I was under the impression that it was specifically the root AND the heart-shaped blade.

So take this with a grain of salt as it's from the "Fossil Wiki", but was also the only source I could find for anything related to what causes Hubbell Megs:

""Hubbell teeth" are juvenile Carcharocles megalodon teeth from the Bone Valley phosphate of Florida. These heart-shaped teeth, often with root and cusp abnormalities, are sometimes referred to as "Hubbell teeth" after Gordon Hubbell.

A commonly accepted theory is that all Hubbell teeth, by definition, are deformed, probably as a result of nutritional deficiency as young sharks. The large majority of juvenile megalodon teeth are normal, miniatures more or less of the adult teeth.

There is some lag time involved between the deformation as a germ tooth and its development and deployment as a useful (though deformed) tooth. A nutritional deficiency could occur shortly after birth, resulting in Hubbell teeth weeks or months later.

The disorder that affects a small proportion of these juvenile sharks may arise from an ultimately fatal genetic problem (they don't eat enough because there is a birth defect). Or, it may be something that these young sharks survive when they find sufficient prey items (they stop producing deformed teeth when nutrition is adequate). For one reason or the other, we don't find large Hubbell teeth."

 

Looks like this wiki entry was copied from Harry's gallery-http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/gallery/image/197-hubbell-teeth/

[Meganeura]

1 minute ago, Al Dente said:

 

Looks like this wiki entry was copied from Harry's gallery-http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/gallery/image/197-hubbell-teeth/

So it does! I'd say that leads credence if anything - Harry certainly knows his stuff after all.

[siteseer]

My understanding is that a fossil dealer and then several fossil dealers started calling juvenile megs "Hubbell teeth" because Gordon let it be known that he was on the lookout for them.  People have been using the term for as long as I've been collecting going back at least to the late 80's, I think.  At some point, he had enough of a sample but the nickname stuck.

[Harry Pristis]

 

As far as I know, here is the origin of the "commonly accepted theory" in my album here titled TEETH AND JAWS:

 

Harry Pristis

• November 26, 2007
•  
• 3,549 views
•  Juvenile Carcharocles megalodon teeth from the Bone Valley phosphate of Florida. These heart-shaped teeth, often with root and cusp abnormalities, are sometimes referred to as "Hubbell teeth" after Gordon Hubbell.
• 
• My personal theory is that all Hubbell teeth, by definition, are deformed, probably as a result of nutritional deficiency as young sharks. The large majority of juvenile megalodon teeth are normal, miniatures more or less of the adult teeth.
• There is some lag time involved between the deformation as a germ tooth and its development and deployment as a useful (though deformed) tooth. A nutritional deficiency could occur shortly after birth, resulting in Hubbell teeth weeks or months later.
• The disorder that affects a small proportion of these juvenile sharks may arise from an ultimately fatal genetic problem (they don't eat enough because there is a birth defect). Or, it may be something that these young sharks survive when they find sufficient prey items (they stop producing deformed teeth when nutrition is adequate). For one reason or the other, we don't find large Hubbell teeth.
• For a discussion of Hubbell teeth, see MEGALODON, HUNTING THE HUNTER by Mark Renz (2002).

[Shellseeker]

17 hours ago, Jerrychang said:

The definition of hubbell is just ”heart shape and small” or is it has more specific definition?

Thank you for sharing this gorgeous tooth with us. I love the kaleidoscope colors and tan root.  As Daniel indicates,  I was fortunate enough to find an almost complete one last month.  Big Thrill!!!

 

Just a question for @siteseer @Al Dente @Harry Pristis

 

Is there any indication of this shaped Megalodon from any other location than Bone Valley ? That seems to be the curious part.     Jack

[Harry Pristis]

51 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

. . . 

Just a question for @siteseer @Al Dente @Harry Pristis

 

Is there any indication of this shaped Megalodon from any other location than Bone Valley ? That seems to be the curious part.     Jack

I'd guess no other location produces "Hubbell" teeth with the frequency to match South Florida.  The paleo-Tampa Bay, it has been argued, was a megalodon nursery; that is, the shallow, safer place that mother megs sought out to pup.  Another such nursery was discovered in Panama, but I don't know about Hubbell teeth there.

Extinct giant shark nursery discovered in Panama (phys.org)

[Jerrychang]

Thanks for all the information, I have two more teeth that seems fit in the “deformed ”definition.

The smaller one was somehow destroyed by the farmer who collected it.

[bthemoose]

3 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Is there any indication of this shaped Megalodon from any other location than Bone Valley ? That seems to be the curious part.     Jack

They can be found elsewhere — here’s one a forum member found in Maryland a couple of years ago:

 

 

[siteseer]

6 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Thank you for sharing this gorgeous tooth with us. I love the kaleidoscope colors and tan root.  As Daniel indicates,  I was fortunate enough to find an almost complete one last month.  Big Thrill!!!

 

Just a question for @siteseer @Al Dente @Harry Pristis

 

Is there any indication of this shaped Megalodon from any other location than Bone Valley ? That seems to be the curious part.     Jack

 

Hi Jack,

 

Other than that one shown from Maryland, I did see one in that article on the Carcharocles megalodon nursery in Panama (Pimiento et al., 2010) and there's a photo of it on the FLMNH website.  It should be pointed out that baby-juvenile megalodon of any morphology are quite rare.  I've seen three total from the Sharktooth Hill Bonebed (one shown below, the 3rd tooth, 1 11/16 inches or 44mm).  None of them looked like Hubbells.  I've seen a juvenile from Chile as well (shown below - 2nd tooth, just under 2 1/2 inches or 62mm)

 

Pimiento C., D.J. Ehret, B.J. MacFadden, and G Hubbell.  2010.

Ancient Nursery Area for the Extinct Giant Shark Megalodon from the Miocene of Panama. PLoSONE 5(5)

Edited July 23, 2022 by siteseer

[Shellseeker]

14 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

I'd guess no other location produces "Hubbell" teeth with the frequency to match South Florida.  The paleo-Tampa Bay, it has been argued, was a megalodon nursery; that is, the shallow, safer place that mother megs sought out to pup.  Another such nursery was discovered in Panama, but I don't know about Hubbell teeth there.

Extinct giant shark nursery discovered in Panama (phys.org)

Harry,

Thanks for your response and for others @siteseer, @bthemoose, @Al Dente

who have Meg knowledge around the country,  around the world. I have been poking thru the TFF threads and the PDF....  for just 10 pages it is packed with information.... comparing Megs from Bone Valley, Calvert Cliffs, Yorktown fm in NC, Panama... not necessarily juvenile megs, but Megs of all sizes.

 

Some thoughts,  observations....

1 I am amazed by the color change in the Hubbell found at Calvert Cliffs by @Saltylmnop. Maybe @bthemoose @WhodamanHD @digit could comment on color changes in Megs

2) In the photo from the PDF, that is Dana Ehret holding a Panama Hubbell Meg in his right hand. It is stored in the UF Paleontology Collection. Note the cusp on the lateral tooth on the left.  These are both Panama teeth.

In the PDF table below, this Hubbell is limited to positions A1 or A2,  while the lateral with cusp. is from L1 to L5.  This certainly is new information for me.

 

3 Note that on some but not all of the Hubbell Megs, there is a bump 3/4 of the way from point to root. This "bump", which may be pathological,  exists in this Calvert Cliffs tooth...

and in one of your Megs from Bone Valley,

and in the Bone Valley Meg, I found a month ago

 

I took a quick look on the internet, some exhibit a rather pronounced bulge, some a less pronounced bulge,  one with no bulge have a deep root plunge,  and some seem to be just 45 mm Megs with no Hubbell features.

 

Back to OPs tooth,  It does not seem to have the Bulge but it does have the Plunge as do some of the Teeth that Siteseer presents.

 

 

All in all, I was very pleased that we could get so much input so fast from TFF Members around the world.

[siteseer]

Another thing I noticed about Hubbell teeth is that the crown is somewhat inflated near the base making the crown thicker than what you see in other teeth of the same size.  Here's one that I have from Bone Valley (1 5/8 inches/just over 400mm along the slant).  I don't have a profile shot to show the thickness of the crown.  It has that noticeable broadening partway up the cutting edges from the base.

[Miocene_Mason]

On 7/23/2022 at 10:02 AM, Shellseeker said:

I am amazed by the color change in the Hubbell found at Calvert Cliffs

Hello! The color of teeth at Calvert is highly dependent on two things 1) the layer and 2) the conditions it has been subject to since it wore out (provided it wasn't found in situ). The large layers at Calvert for example are known to produce cream colored teeth, whereas light blues are more common elsewhere. Teeth which wear out and toss in the water tend to get darker, I presume due to oxidizing of iron and other minerals in the water. Some smaller teeth get orange and honey colored, I speculate due to different oxides which happen when exposed to air, sunlight, and/or acidic rainwater. Much of this hasn't been studied in depth to my knowledge though and is pretty much guesswork on my part. I don't think any of this is specific to hubbell megs, but given their small size but wide surface area I think color changes due to changes in their preservational environment might be magnified to produce some real pretty ones!

 

I might add that science done on hubbell megs is limited, no other members of the Carcharocles lineage show this peculiar inflated base and deflated tip as juveniles (at least as far as I know), so if it is not a pathology its something specific to megs/chubs. I bet it has something to do with the fact that their cusps are absorbed into their crown. 

 

Best,

Mason

[Shellseeker]

On 7/24/2022 at 1:38 PM, siteseer said:

Another thing I noticed about Hubbell teeth is that the crown is somewhat inflated near the base making the crown thicker than what you see in other teeth of the same size.  Here's one that I have from Bone Valley (1 5/8 inches/just over 400mm along the slant).  I don't have a profile shot to show the thickness of the crown.  It has that noticeable broadening partway up the cutting edges from the base.

Jess,

Thanks for the comment. Originally missed this... Agree, it seems like there is a "plateau" on the lingual surface of the blade that is not present on the labial side.. the thickness of a Hubbell is likely to be bigger than a non_hubbell Meg of similar length. 

50 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said:

I might add that science done on hubbell megs is limited, no other members of the Carcharocles lineage show this peculiar inflated base and deflated tip as juveniles (at least as far as I know), so if it is not a pathology its something specific to megs/chubs. I bet it has something to do with the fact that their cusps are absorbed into their crown. 

 

Best,

Mason

Thanks for the excellent response.  I really treasure the strength of TFF experts and a lot of that is bringing out the thoughts of many experts on Fossils like shark teeth from around the world. I tend to also wonder "why"  and speculate..

It seems that there were a number of Meg nurseries around the new world, at least ones we have found,  and that gets us to the juvenile Megs and a % of them are Hubbell shaped. It we were to find a Meg nursery with no Hubbells,  that might lead us in one direction...

 

I am not sure that these should be a pathology... it has always seemed to me that pathologies are variable, random and sometimes unique. So, if you find a single pathology that spans hundreds of thousands of examples out of a huge population, with no other pathology having similar numbers,  does it still qualify as a pathology? I'll have to think about this in the morning...

 

My attention was also grabbed by the above photo of Megs found in that Peru nursery !!!

1) How come those scientists/researchers never considered whether UF 237914 might be a Chub

2) It only has 1 cusp,  similar to the majority (but not all) Megs I find with cusps in the Peace River.

1 hour ago, WhodamanHD said:

I might add that science done on hubbell megs is limited,

There are so many things I can observe as true,  and at the same time , realize that I will never know why/how some Megs picked up a Cusp.

 

 

[Rock Hound]

What about the root on this 3 Inch Meg?

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Rock Hound

[Gareth_]

9 hours ago, Rock Hound said:

What about the root on this 3 Inch Meg?

 

 

 

It looks fairly typical for a lower jaw Otodus megalodon tooth