Some curious bones

[Shellseeker]

Out hunting Monday.  1st time in a while.  Low expectations. This is a challenging location to reach.

In the 1st sieve , found a connected turtle osteoderm.  That was nice... A number of items that could be teeth, but too beat up to identify. Shark teeth were Bull, Dusky, Tiger

 

This request is about these 3 fossils:

 

1) I know the tympanic bulla Identification because of a great previous posting by @Harry Pristis.which I saved to my local disk. The find is fragile ans thin... likely in development pre_birth.  Just wanted to confirm the identification..

 

2)  About the same size... similar to a carpal/tarsal, Great quality with small lines not yet eroded.

 

3) , the larger bone.  It is complete,  pristine, with lots of fine lines, not removed by water erosion.. My memory is failing.  I have seen these before.  Size is Length 60 x Width 30 x Height 30 millimeters.

 

All suggestions appreciated.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Shellseeker
typos

[Meganeura]

Teeth too beat up to identify - except for that really nice rooted tapir (?) tooth I see sitting in those finds! Can't add much on the IDs, but the bulla does appear to be exactly that, and when I was reading up on florida fossil dolphins earlier to try and figure out exactly how to determine between periotics, Pomatodelphis was the smallest genus so I'd agree with your initial take!

[Shellseeker]

Quote

sesamoid A bone that forms in a joint capusule or tendon near a joint. The patella (or kneecap) is typically the largest sesamoid found in the body. In many medium- to large-sized mammals, there are well-formed sesamoids found in the joints between the metapodials and the proximal-most phalanges.

"large-sized" mammals.... Gomph, Mammoth, Sloth.  I get the feeling if it were horse or camel_llama, we would be seeing these frequently for  ID.  Gives me a place to start the search.  I'll try Sloth for  while... A VERY interesting TFF Thread on Sesamoids

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/94304-giant-tortois-osteoderm/

 

And some clearer photos...

Edited August 9, 2022 by Shellseeker

[Harry Pristis]

Good images, Jack.  I think the second bone is a medial phalanx of something . . . maybe a tortoise.  Just a guess about tortoise.

I think you're right about the third bone -- a sesamoid.  It may be identifiable, but I don't recognize it.  You can eliminate some patellae right away.

 

[Shellseeker]

3 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

Good images, Jack.  I think the second bone is a medial phalanx of something . . . maybe a tortoise.  Just a guess about tortoise.

I think you're right about the third bone -- a sesamoid.  It may be identifiable, but I don't recognize it.  You can eliminate some patellae right away.

 

Thank you, Harry... This gives me some directions to go...  I'll poke around the Internet looking for Research Papers on Sloth sesamoids, patellas, etc and tortoise phalanx. 

I'll let you know of discoveries , if any...

 

It would be aggravating to have bones of this quality go un_identified. It is hard to believe that I am the first to have found some of this stuff...  Jack

 

[Shellseeker]

6 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

I think you're right about the third bone -- a sesamoid.  It may be identifiable, but I don't recognize it.  You can eliminate some patellae right away.

Harry, I got it... I got it !!!!  Up after Midnight.... Lots of Research papers,  lots of images... A Mylodon from the Pleistocene of Brazil,  Metatarsal III... YES !!!!..

So,  Paramylodon in Florida, harlani or garbani based on size... In the photo of the Brazil sloth,it is about 40 mm, instead of the 66 mm length on mine,  so first impression is Paramylodon harlani..

I have found other P. harlani fossils at this location.  Let me know your thoughts.  Thanks Jack

 

 

 

[Shellseeker]

8 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

A Mylodon from the Pleistocene of Brazil,  Metatarsal III... YES !!!!..

So,  Paramylodon in Florida, harlani or garbani based on size... In the photo of the Brazil sloth,it is about 40 mm, instead of the 66 mm length on mine,  so first impression is Paramylodon harlani..

I have found other P. harlani fossils at this location.  Let me know your thoughts.  Thanks Jack

 

It always helps to actually read/understand the research paper... in order to avoid incorrect statements. I imagine I will be reading this 18 page paper (2019) a number of times...

The bone I found in not Metatarsal III, but the Dorsal Sesamoid that is associated with Metatarsal III.  The length of the Dorsal Sesamoid in not 40 mm, but 50 mm.

This paper is a critical read for anyone hunting Sloth fossils in Florida.

 

[Shellseeker]

 

I am starting to try and identify the other fossil... I am coming around to medial phalanx,  and while looking around TFF,  I found this image of Hesperotestudo sp from @Plantguy. I see what I think are the medial phalanx here, so they could match Tortoise and once again I have found Hesperotestudo .sp fossils at the site. It would not be surprising. c @jcbshark also found articulated tortoise and might be able to help. 

 

[Shellseeker]

There is one available on ETSY,  says it is a camelid patella... but if that were true,  would someone on TFF not have found one. 

 

I have sent an email to Richard Hulbert,  wait for him evaluation...

[Shellseeker]

Just found another... These are running about 3.5 inches in length,  Hemiauchenia.  Mine may be Mirifica at 66 mm (2.6 inches).

 

 

[Harry Pristis]

It is always dicey to take an identification from an offer on Etsy or online.  Hulbert is usually reliable.

[Scylla]

3 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

It is always dicey to take an identification from an offer on Etsy or online.  Hulbert is usually reliable.

So true!

[Shellseeker]

On 8/10/2022 at 12:14 PM, Shellseeker said:

 

I am starting to try and identify the other fossil... I am coming around to medial phalanx,  and while looking around TFF,  I found this image of Hesperotestudo sp from @Plantguy. I see what I think are the medial phalanx here, so they could match Tortoise and once again I have found Hesperotestudo .sp fossils at the site. It would not be surprising. c @jcbshark also found articulated tortoise and might be able to help. 

 

I have looked around some,  it is not easy,  most either do not find,  or choose not to do closeups on the foot bones of tortoise. Here is a picture from a research paper on Testudo amphithorax (Cope Referred to
Stylemysl).  Note that the hind foot picture and bones is part of the UF Vertebrate Database,  but I checked... no photos. I am interested in the bone identified as t1 (tarsal 1).  It might be a match for the bone I found..... but then again, it might not.  @digit

 

 

[digit]

9 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Note that the hind foot picture and bones is part of the UF Vertebrate Database,  but I checked... no photos. I am interested in the bone identified as t1 (tarsal 1).  It might be a match for the bone I found..... but then again, it might not.  @digit

Don't have access to the VP collection at the moment as we are relocated to the Fantastic Fossils exhibit at Powell Hall through the end of 2022. Richard is busy (as usual) but you might get a reply from him as it would likely be something he'd recognize.

 

On 8/9/2022 at 2:12 PM, Shellseeker said:

In the 1st sieve , found a connected turtle osteoderm. 

Turtles don't really have osteoderms (like armadillos, sloths or crocodilians). I'd refer to these two articulated carapace bones as neural bones (the spine attached underneath these). These are likely from a slider turtle (Trachemys sp.) and a nice planar image from the top might allow identification of which two these are.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, digit said:

On 8/9/2022 at 2:12 PM, Shellseeker said:

In the 1st sieve , found a connected turtle osteoderm. 

Turtles don't really have osteoderms (like armadillos, sloths or crocodilians). I'd refer to these two articulated carapace bones as neural bones (the spine attached underneath these). These are likely from a slider turtle (Trachemys sp.) and a nice planar image from the top might allow identification of which two these are.

I have photos of these finds into Richard, thought that he might be busy. but then he is also retired (in some sense). 

 

Here are the photos of the possible Trachemys.  I added the other piece because it is consistent but does not fit the other piece...  same width and height, same type of fossilization and wear.  Thanks, Ken

 

[digit]

This set appears to be Neural 2 & 3 (front of the turtle up in this rotated photo):

 

 

I'd like to see the other pair from the top (possibly an articulated Neural 6 & 7).

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

 

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, digit said:

I'd like to see the other pair from the top (possibly an articulated Neural 6 & 7).

Cheers. -Ken

Well Ken,

I went to the 1st photo, grabbed whatever looked like turtle...

[digit]

 

This one from above appears to be two more neurals (from further back on the carapace) fused together. A top view of these would be helpful for ID.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Harry Pristis]

For comparison:

 

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, digit said:

This one from above appears to be two more neurals (from further back on the carapace) fused together. A top view of these would be helpful for ID.

My bad,

 

[digit]

Yup. No grooves (from the edges of the scutes covering the bones) across either of these neurals. The only associated pair without this are indeed neurals 6 & 7. Gray lines in the drawing below indicate the edges of the scutes which overlay the bones.

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

 

[Shellseeker]

5 minutes ago, digit said:

Yup. No grooves (from the edges of the scutes covering the bones) across either of these neurals. The only associated pair without this are indeed neurals 6 & 7. Gray lines in the drawing below indicate the edges of the scutes which overlay the bones.

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

 

Wow, Really impressive!!! Early in my fossil hunting, I decided not to keep turtle,

I always gave it away or donated. Saved me lots of storage space, but at a cost.

Thank you, Ken for all you do..

 

 

 

[digit]

If we didn't keep turtle from the Montbrook site we wouldn't have needed the extra warehouse to store the overflow.

 

(Not quite true but it seems that way.) We had some new(ish) preppers in the Fantastic Fossils exhibit yesterday and they were working on 4 separate jackets containing Trachemys turtles. We've recently crossed over 70,000 fossils cataloged from Montbrook and roughly one third of them are turtle fossils.

 

I don't often keep turtle fragments when hunting the Peace unless they are nicely complete pieces. The remainder go in the give-away pile same as you.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Meganeura]

On 8/15/2022 at 7:17 AM, digit said:

If we didn't keep turtle from the Montbrook site we wouldn't have needed the extra warehouse to store the overflow.

 

(Not quite true but it seems that way.) We had some new(ish) preppers in the Fantastic Fossils exhibit yesterday and they were working on 4 separate jackets containing Trachemys turtles. We've recently crossed over 70,000 fossils cataloged from Montbrook and roughly one third of them are turtle fossils.

 

I don't often keep turtle fragments when hunting the Peace unless they are nicely complete pieces. The remainder go in the give-away pile same as you.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

Seems like this is what I should be doing - I've only been keeping neural pieces or pieces with really nice patterns, or just connected chunks - and it's already filling up too much space.