AroHed Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 Can ayone help ID this jaw with teeth? It is encrusted with oxidized blue-clay, and was found in a creek here in SW, MS. Tumbling has created the exposed parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 Looks like the images got lost somehow. Can you reply to this post with the images in question? Cheers. -Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AroHed Posted August 14, 2022 Author Share Posted August 14, 2022 1 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted August 14, 2022 Share Posted August 14, 2022 That is very interesting. Can you show pix without it being wet. How big is it? That rusty can is not great for a scale bar. Looks like some sort of mammal fossil with the bones all eroded out and the teeth left behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AroHed Posted August 16, 2022 Author Share Posted August 16, 2022 Hope this helps. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 And here's a crop of the area of interest in case that reveals any better detail. Likely, going to be difficult to assign an ID from a planar view of the teeth. Occlusal (chewing surface) views are best for ID but not really possible from this specimen at the moment. A bit of fossil prep might reveal a bit more of the teeth that are included in this fossil. Seems some of the rock near the surface of the teeth might yield to some removal with appropriate instruments. Any site that gave up this cool find would be one that I'd be revisiting over and over again. Cheers. -Ken 3 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AroHed Posted August 16, 2022 Author Share Posted August 16, 2022 Thanks Ken for your effort and information. I understand your solution quite well. Like all creeks and bayous here in Southwest, Mississippi, one has to be in the right spot at the right time, or else it could be lost forever. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 What a fascinating find! Can you show images of all sides? @Harry Pristis @Shellseeker 1 1 The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 It IS an interesting find. It appears to be a mammal, not a whale, not a bear though it may be a carnivore. I don't know much about the geology of SW Mississippi. Maybe you can pin down the local geology with the map. 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AroHed Posted August 16, 2022 Author Share Posted August 16, 2022 2 hours ago, JohnJ said: What a fascinating find! Can you show images of all sides? @Harry Pristis @Shellseeker 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared C Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 This is one one the coolest fossils I've ever seen pop up in fossil ID -I'm following with keen interest 1 4 “Not only is the universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think” -Werner Heisenberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 (edited) On 8/14/2022 at 8:25 AM, AroHed said: Can anyone help ID this jaw with teeth? It is encrusted with oxidized blue-clay, and was found in a creek here in SW, MS. Tumbling has created the exposed parts. Welcome to the forum: We need to see the chewing surfaces of the teeth to achieve certainty. You will have a little time while you and maybe some of us explore thoughts on how to remove the oxidized blue clay or see thru it. Let's utilize that valuable time. Get exact measurements on everything, preferably in millimeters... by everything , I mean whichever parts of bone and teeth you can see and measure. Jaw_bone end to end measurement = I see 5 teeth or parts of teeth.. Is that correct? Every measurement you can get on each tooth: from root to chewing surface; Length and width of chewing surface, etc... and measurement you can think of.... The big tooth in the foreground looks like a Carnassial, which it why this may have come from a predator. Fossil enthuiasts measure the LENGTH of the chewing surface on the Carnassial and tend to repeat it over and over. If you get us the length, it will tell us something but not everything about the size of the animal we seek to identify... To the left of the Carnassial, are 2 premolars... which might imply that the direction of the animals lips were to the left of this photo... It may be easy... Someone is just going to look at it and tell us... but until lets play around with the sizes of what we have... Your jaw is NOT Dire Wolf, but you can see the pattern of 2 premolars to the left of the Carnassial going toward the lips in both upper and lower jaws. Edited August 16, 2022 by Shellseeker Add photo 3 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared C Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 (edited) 16 hours ago, digit said: @AroHed, to avoid doing any unnecessary accidental damage on this already beautiful fossil for the sake of ID, I suggest removing that thin layer away from the chewing surface of that top rightmost tooth first. Perhaps you'll then be able to get an ID from just that one being revealed, and if not, then continue the work Edited August 17, 2022 by Jared C 1 1 “Not only is the universe stranger than we think, it is stranger than we can think” -Werner Heisenberg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randyw Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 +1! If this was on my prep desk I would consolidate everything exposed then remove the matrix marked in red first.. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiros Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 What an interesting concretion! It looks like it may have been formed in some sort of cave. It appears to be a carnivore mammal. At first it looked like bear, but after observing it for longer I'm not sure about it anymore 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 This may be a significant find for mississippi. Y’oughta send a photo to the guy at the state museum. Can anyone help me remember his name? George something? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 As for removing any rock, this may be a job for sn expert rather than a noobie… nothing personal, of course 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 I stumbled across this thread that would be an alternative for that larger tooth... The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AroHed Posted August 17, 2022 Author Share Posted August 17, 2022 2 hours ago, jpc said: This may be a significant find for mississippi. Y’oughta send a photo to the guy at the state museum. Can anyone help me remember his name? George something? Yes, George Phillips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Styles Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 On 8/16/2022 at 12:48 PM, Harry Pristis said: It IS an interesting find. It appears to be a mammal, not a whale, not a bear though it may be a carnivore. I don't know much about the geology of SW Mississippi. Maybe you can pin down the local geology with the map. Probably Citronelle formation - the material and color seems about right, and lots of mammal fossils come from there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 @Styles So if I'm reading right, that formation is predominantly Pliocene material? @Shellseeker If it were tapir, wouldn't they all be double rooted until you get to the far front incisors? The tooth that @Randyw highlighted looks like it only has a single root, unless I'm missing something or the rest of the root isn't exposed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Styles said: Probably Citronelle formation - the material and color seems about right, and lots of mammal fossils come from there. Abstract GSA Bulletin 82 The sediments forming the Citronelle Formation occur as a nearly continuous blanket along the southern margin of the Coastal Plain and can be traced from Texas across the Gulf Coast into peninsular Florida. The lack of fossil evidence, however, has made this formation the subject of a heated age controversy since it was first described in 1916. At present, its age is given by various investigators as late Miocene, Pliocene, Plio-Pleistocene or Pleistocene. The recent discovery of abundant vertebrate fossils, at a site in northern Mobile County, Alabama, near the base of the formation, indicates that the maximum age of the Citronelle is mid-Pliocene (Hemphillian). Other evidence is present to indicate that the rocks of fossil zone represent a brackish estuary that was later filled by river encroachment, forming the overlying fluviatile sediments typical of the Citronelle Formation. Hence, the faunal evidence, coupled with existing pollen data from the upper sediments of the Citronelle in nearby Florida, now indicates that deposition of this formation began in the middle Pliocene and continued into the pre-Nebraskan Pleistocene. 6 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 17, 2022 Share Posted August 17, 2022 Could that be a mustelid? @fossillarry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 I have a copy of "The Geology of Mississippi" by Dockery and Thompson (University Press of Mississippi, 2016) and it covers how the Citronelle Formation has been recognized in the literature county-by-county in Mississippi. It notes the vertebrate fauna as including Teleoceras sp., Hipparion phosphorum, Nannipus cf. N. lenticularis, and Synthetoceras cf. tricornatus. It also quotes Isphording and Lamb (1971, p. 778) as the age of the Citronelle extending from the Middle Pliocene to pre-Nebraskan Pleistocene. It does not mention the occurrence of fossils inside concretions within the formation. In fact, it doesn't mention concretions at all, the Citronelle consisting of sands, clays, and gravels so the origin of the fossil might be another formation. One thing to remember is that before the 1980's, the Pliocene was recognized as starting about 10 million years ago and ending about 1.9 million years ago. Today, the Pliocene is understood as running from about 4.5 million years ago to about 2.6 million years ago. Teleoceras is now considered a rhino that died out by the end of the Miocene. In fact, rhinos became extinct in North America at the end of the MIocene. Synthetoceras is considered a Late Miocene form as well so the Citronelle deposition must have started in the Late Miocene. Isphording, W. C. and G. M. Land. 1971. Age and Origin of the Citronelle Formation in Alabama. Geological Society of America Bulletin 82(3), 775-779. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hemipristis Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 Following! 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.' George Santayana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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