Hunting Florida, interesting finds.

[Shellseeker]

Out Hunting the Peace River.  Very unusual low water levels for summertime.  Went back to a location that I have not visited for years, with a good friend. He found some good things.. a snake / reptile vert with processes each as wide as the centrum. 2 teeth that could be pre_equus horses, a bunch of little colorful shark teeth.

I have 4 finds that I both find interesting and can not identify.

1) A dolphin jaw bone  (pretty special even without teeth)...

Questions: Which Florida fossil Dolphin? Very small teeth on edge of jaw.  What is the brownish indention line paralleling the alveoli line?  Tooth impressions from the opposite jaw? @Boesse

 

2) Another jaw, much smaller, possibly a family pet ?

 

3) An Earbone....Not Llama,  not Horse,  (although similar in size), Not Mammoth/Mastodon.  I have lots of Equus ear bones. These are very hard to identify because few people collect them... Odd fossilization, if fossilized. Given the huge number of South Florida Fossil hunters,  it is odd that this is the first time I have seen an ear bone anything like this. 1st photo is 30 x 30 millimeters.

 

4) and last... A bone with a facet and minimal breakage. Seems like it should be identifiable... It is 60 x 45 mm, rather thin.... feels marine mammal or alligator...

 

As normal, I will be searching the internet for clues over the  next couple of days

 

 

 

 

 

[Harry Pristis]

My guess, at 7mm, is a mustelid jaw, a mink perhaps.  "Florida is home to 3 mustelid species, the long-tailed weasel, the American mink, and the river otter, all of which have a similar brown coloration and body shape. One quick way to help you determine which species you’ve seen is size. Long-tailed weasels are the smallest of the three mustelids."

[Plantguy]

Hey Jack, neat finds!!....was wondering if the periotic might be sirenian/dugong...I'll look around and see if I can find any similar pics when I was chasing some ID's down awhile back......

 

Regards, Chris 

[Shellseeker]

9 hours ago, Plantguy said:

Hey Jack, neat finds!!....was wondering if the periotic might be sirenian/dugong...I'll look around and see if I can find any similar pics when I was chasing some ID's down awhile back......

 

Regards, Chris 

Thanks,  Chris

1st instance of me finding any part of one of these.  Got about 1/2. This one from Etsy.

 

 

[Shellseeker]

12 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

My guess, at 7mm, is a mustelid jaw, a mink perhaps.  "Florida is home to 3 mustelid species, the long-tailed weasel, the American mink, and the river otter, all of which have a similar brown coloration and body shape. One quick way to help you determine which species you’ve seen is size. Long-tailed weasels are the smallest of the three mustelids."

Thanks Harry,

I'll try to get smarter searching the internet and likely send photos to Hulbert.

You might not have seen this....

https://synapsida.blogspot.com/2012/11/weasels-in-stone-mustelid-evolution.html

Quote

.............Things speed up again during the Pliocene, a time of prolonged climate change that altered the environment for many animals. According to the analysis, while individual modern species may not have originated at this time, the evolutionary lines that led to them often did. We'd expect to see the the first American mink, the first clawless otters, the first hog badgers, and maybe the first wolverines appearing at around this time, among others. ......................

 

[Harry Pristis]

4 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Thanks,  Chris

1st instance of me finding any part of one of these.  Got about 1/2. This one from Etsy.

For comparison:

 

[Shellseeker]

As Harry indicates,  Weasel tends to have carnassials in the 5-7 mm range, Otter in the 14-16 mm range and Mink in the 7-8 mm range.. The photo below is a Canadian study

Quote

The Canadian field-naturalist. 1998 Black, Reading, and Savage : Sea Mink from Canada 47. Figure 2. The right mandible of Sea Mink (M. macrodon) from the Weir site compared with the right mandible of an adult male Mink (M. vison). Above: M. macrodon (BgDq6:2794-l) collections of the Department of Anthropology, University of New Brunswick. Below: M. vison (FA207-14); collec- tions of the Faunal Osteo-archaeology Laboratory, Department of Anthropology, University of Toronto. tured in southern New Brunswick from 1981 to 1983. The Sea Mink bones are 23.6% to 34.2% larger than those of male Mink

 

 

So now, we have a pretty good bet on an American Mink jaw,  we'll see what Richard says...

On an aside, I saw a British Newspaper article and photo of a mink in the everglades carrying fresh caught 7 foot Boa across a road,  or whatever passes for a road in the Everglades.

[Shellseeker]

18 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

1) A dolphin jaw bone  (pretty special even without teeth)...

Questions: Which Florida fossil Dolphin? Very small teeth on edge of jaw.  What is the brownish indention line paralleling the alveoli line?  Tooth impressions from the opposite jaw?

I have spent the last 8 hours researching these finds from yesterday... The answers are out there to be found..... There are 3 members of the Dolphin Genus, Pomatodelphis discovered so far.  One is in France, The other 2 are in Florida.  P. bobengi and P. inaequalis. 

There is a circa 1930s paper on P. bobengi,  with plates for the upper and lower jaws:

 

The last one P. inaequalis is a small version of P. bobengi.  Here is a section of an article from UFMNH

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/florida-vertebrate-fossils/species/pomatodelphis-inaequalis/

that answers my 2nd question.

 

 

Productive day, but I have some non- fossil chores.  Have to postpone looking at that bone #4.

[PODIGGER]

Jack,

I can’t help with the id but find this intriguing. On a side note, is Dr Hulbert still available for help with id’s? I thought he was retiring this summer.

 

Jim W.

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, PODIGGER said:

Jack,

I can’t help with the id but find this intriguing. On a side note, is Dr Hulbert still available for help with id’s? I thought he was retiring this summer.

Jim W.

Jim, In the sense of retirement, I believe that Richard has retired from most of his official duties. @digit will have better insights.  Richard seems to be staying involved in Montbrook to some extent and also keeping involved in the UF Fossil Identification Service.

As you might expect, it is challenging to find a replacement,  who has similar skills and expertise, and is willing to take on the responsibilities, time, pressure of being the person who launched the Florida Fossil Identification Service and would like to see it continue at a high level.

 

I note that many other TFF members seem to be getting responses from Richard, I am actively trying to reduce my number of requests, in the hope that frees Richard for other retirement activities.   Jack

[digit]

46 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

I believe that Richard has retired from most of his official duties. @digit will have better insights. 

He's officially employed through September--I believe it is through the end of next month. He will be giving up his long-held office in Dickinson Hall and will be moving into a small office space in our off-campus warehouse (which is closer to Richard's house). He'll be moving in part of his library and starting to work on research activities getting ready to publish a stream of papers on Florida fossils. He cannot do any actual work for the museum for a period of 6 months or he risks losing his pension (some silly obscure rule meant to protect employees in some manner). He will miss all of the next digging season at Montbrook as he won't be timed-out and capable of working or volunteering for the museum before then. Replying to ID requests during this blackout time period would be considered "work" so get your requests in now.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[PODIGGER]

Thanks for the update gentleman. Good to know he will be back. I look forward to seeing his publications.

[Meganeura]

Can confirm, he's done a bunch of IDs for me lately - glad to hear he'll have time to publish papers though! 

[Boesse]

The suspected periotic is actually nearly the entire exoccipital bone of a land mammal including the occipital condyle and jugular and/or hypoglossal foramen.

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Boesse said:

The suspected periotic is actually nearly the entire exoccipital bone of a land mammal including the occipital condyle and jugular and/or hypoglossal foramen.

 Thank you !!! That is a great lead and I will vigorously pursue starting Saturday.  (Up at 5 for a day of hunting).   I may identify this yet !!!!

[Shellseeker]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:43 PM, Shellseeker said:

The suspected periotic is actually nearly the entire exoccipital bone of a land mammal including the occipital condyle and jugular and/or hypoglossal foramen.

Using Bobby hint,  after a couple of hours,  tracked down a pdf about Neocnus dousman, uF 76364,  a small Megalomyx sloth from Haiti that went extinct about 10000 years ago. jf stands for jugular foramen.. and it even looks like an ear... It is also 76364 in the UF Paleontological Db. 

 

Because of size, I do not think it is this sloth, but it might be a sloth, found in a Bone Valley Miocene location...

 

If this is a sloth earbone, it will be my first... On the hunt...

[Plantguy]

7 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Using Bobby hint,  after a couple of hours,  tracked down a pdf about Neocnus dousman, uF 76364,  a small Megalomyx sloth from Haiti that went extinct about 10000 years ago. jf stands for jugular foramen.. and it even looks like an ear... It is also 76364 in the UF Paleontological Db. 

 

Because of size, I do not think it is this sloth, but it might be a sloth, found in a Bone Valley Miocene location...

 

If this is a sloth earbone, it will be my first... On the hunt...

Jack, Glad Bobby chimed in and provided the needed expertise. sorry for taking you down the wrong path. 

Keep finding cool things!!

Regards, Chris  

Edited August 27, 2022 by Plantguy

[Shellseeker]

12 minutes ago, Plantguy said:

Jack, Glad Bobby chimed in and provided the needed expertise. sorry for taking you down the wrong path. 

Keep finding cool things!!

Regards, Chris  

No worries,  Chris... I actually do love going down rat holes after fossil puzzles. Whatever happens, I learn new and interesting things reading the research papers and asking questions.  I am like a bloodhound,  I need a scent...

On this one , it seems likely that it is sloth, but I do not know for sure,  and I certainly do not know genus and species.

 

I wonder if it could be Thinobadistes !!!   There is a skeleton of T. segnis in the Museum of Natural History hall at UF.

 

Quote

During this time, many animals and life forms appeared. Florida alligators first came alive the Miocene. Rhinos that became extinct lived in Florida during the Miocene. Three-toed horses lived during the Miocene. They ate mostly soft vegetation and grass. Barboufelis loveorum, or “False saber-toothed cat” was habited in Florida during the Miocene. They had long canine teeth and ate only meat. Thinobadistes was a giant ground sloth that lived in Florida during the Miocene. Pomatodelphis inaequalis was a small whale that was found in Florida and was traced to the Miocene. The Amphicyonidae, or bear dog, was habited in Florida during the Miocene. They were about as tall as the American black bear and were most likely ambushers because their legs were made for short, sudden bursts of speed. Most of the dangerous predators of Florida during the Miocene were large cats.