Fossil Ant (prionomyrmex) in Baltic Amber and Fossil Spider in Dominican Amber. Real or Fake?

[Sofyar]

Hey everyone!

I was wondering about 2 Amber specimens with inclusions that I've had for a while now. I tested both in salt water and acetone and both passed (Both Float in the salt water and both were not affected by the acetone) but I wanted to know what you think. I'll include close ups, regular and under UV light photos of both.

[mr.cheese]

I am interested to hear what is to be said here as I am of the understanding insects in amber are faked regularly but you can tell due to trapped air bubbles that should have left the amber by the time it fossilised. So I have always treated any with trapped air with suspicion. But i have also wondered about air trapped in hair etc?!

 

Any way, a better answer will be along soon!

[Sofyar]

2 minutes ago, mr.cheese said:

I am interested to hear what is to be said here as I am of the understanding insects in amber are faked regularly but you can tell due to trapped air bubbles that should have left the amber by the time it fossilised. So I have always treated any with trapped air with suspicion. But i have also wondered about air trapped in hair etc?!

 

Any way, a better answer will be along soon!

Actually, it's the opposite from my knowledge. Bubbles are a good sign it's genuine but I'm not an expert which is why I uploaded it here 

[Top Trilo]

They seem 100% real to me. They pass all the tests, include many tiny inclusions, and aren't perfectly clear with nothing but a bug in the center.

I think I've heard that most Dominican amber is actually copal, however I am not sure about that. Baltic amber is about 40 million years old. Nice fossils!

[daves64]

I would call both genuine. Air bubbles in amber are common, almost as common as regular debris (dirt, leaf bits & the like). The "fuzz" around the ant is, I believe, caused by the outgassing caused by the insect decaying & would be very hard to fake & not really worth the effort. Usually, a fake inclusion is not only centered in the piece, but also posed (legs and/or wings spread out) with little to no other inclusions (air bubbles or anything else) present to make it more appealing to draw a higher price. 

[Yoda]

Agree with what has been said above

Both look genuine 

The only thing I would slightly question, is that when spiders die, their legs often curl up under the body. But I have seen this not happen in a few pieces of Burmese Amber that I have 

 

Nice pieces 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Yoda

[Randyw]

They passed all the tests and look like they should. I’d be confident in their authenticity. Look great!

[Sofyar]

7 hours ago, Top Trilo said:

They seem 100% real to me. They pass all the tests, include many tiny inclusions, and aren't perfectly clear with nothing but a bug in the center.

I think I've heard that most Dominican amber is actually copal, however I am not sure about that. Baltic amber is about 40 million years old. Nice fossils!

 

7 hours ago, daves64 said:

I would call both genuine. Air bubbles in amber are common, almost as common as regular debris (dirt, leaf bits & the like). The "fuzz" around the ant is, I believe, caused by the outgassing caused by the insect decaying & would be very hard to fake & not really worth the effort. Usually, a fake inclusion is not only centered in the piece, but also posed (legs and/or wings spread out) with little to no other inclusions (air bubbles or anything else) present to make it more appealing to draw a higher price. 

 

7 hours ago, Yoda said:

Agree with what has been said above

Both look genuine 

The only thing I would slightly question, is that when spiders die, their legs often curl up under the body. But I have seen this not happen in a few pieces of Burmese Amber that I have 

 

Nice pieces 

 

6 hours ago, Randyw said:

They passed all the tests and look like they should. I’d be confident in their authenticity. Look great!

Thank you everyone for your responses! Glad to hear confirmations! As to the spider legs usually curling inside, I also heard that but since that is not the case hear and the spider is more easily and nicely visible the price was very high if I remember correctly.

[JohnJ]

Please remember to not post prices.  Thank you.  

[mr.cheese]

Excellent news for you and I learned something new as well, everyone is a winner!

[Ezio Bonsignore]

A side note if I may: I don't know whether the legs of a spider would curl up under its body when it is dying but still alive or rather after its death, but in any case I think the process would be rather difficult when the animal is completely enclosed in sap.

[Randyw]

I’ll add my 2 cents… i have a few spiders in amber and none of their legs are curled….

[Sofyar]

18 hours ago, JohnJ said:

Please remember to not post prices.  Thank you.  

I apologize I did not know

[Sofyar]

3 hours ago, Ezio Bonsignore said:

A side note if I may: I don't know whether the legs of a spider would curl up under its body when it is dying but still alive or rather after its death, but in any case I think the process would be rather difficult when the animal is completely enclosed in sap.

 

1 hour ago, Randyw said:

I’ll add my 2 cents… i have a few spiders in amber and none of their legs are curled….

Yes I agree with you both, and would love to see those spiders you mentioned if you wouldn't mind of course! Thank you for your responses!

[Sofyar]

On 8/20/2022 at 9:02 PM, Top Trilo said:

They seem 100% real to me. They pass all the tests, include many tiny inclusions, and aren't perfectly clear with nothing but a bug in the center.

I think I've heard that most Dominican amber is actually copal, however I am not sure about that. Baltic amber is about 40 million years old. Nice fossils!

I believe you are referring to Columbian amber when mentioning copal not Dominican Amber, because I have never heard that that is the case with Dominican only Columbian but maybe you have information I wasn't aware of. Thanks for the response!

[Sofyar]

1 hour ago, Randyw said:

I’ll add my 2 cents… i have a few spiders in amber and none of their legs are curled….

Also Randy, I would love to hear what is the best method in your opinion to check if a piece of amber has glue on it, since I am not in possession of a  microscope, to check for any fakes that go the extra mile of giving you real amber but a fake glued on inclusion. Thanks!

[Top Trilo]

3 minutes ago, Sofyar said:

I believe you are referring to Columbian amber when mentioning copal not Dominican Amber, because I have never heard that that is the case with Dominican only Columbian but maybe you have information I wasn't aware of. Thanks for the response!

Maybe I was thinking of Colombia, I did some quick research just now and found many sources saying the amber found in the Dominican Republic is in fact mostly amber, many millions of years old but I had also read that copal is found in the Cotui deposits in the country.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287886430_Hippocratea_volubilis_celastraceae_in_cotui_copal_from_the_Dominican_Republic

Here's a paper about the copal

[rocket]

nice pics, you stack them?

[Sofyar]

47 minutes ago, Top Trilo said:

Maybe I was thinking of Colombia, I did some quick research just now and found many sources saying the amber found in the Dominican Republic is in fact mostly amber, many millions of years old but I had also read that copal is found in the Cotui deposits in the country.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/287886430_Hippocratea_volubilis_celastraceae_in_cotui_copal_from_the_Dominican_Republic

Here's a paper about the copal

Interesting. Do you think the Spider might be in Copal? Because in my experience Copal does not react to UV light like Amber does. Also it is VERY hard I pressed it with full force in my hand (something that would affect copal) but it didn't nudge one bit. Also I would say the color doesn't fit the usual color I see for copal almost looking like wax, contrary to the very recognizable amber color that fits it perfectly.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Sofyar

[Sofyar]

Just now, rocket said:

nice pics, you stack them?

the close ups? No I don't have the necessary equipment but the seller has provided them per my request when I purchased them and of course I kept them.  

[Sofyar]

3 hours ago, Randyw said:

I’ll add my 2 cents… i have a few spiders in amber and none of their legs are curled….

 

On 8/20/2022 at 9:32 PM, Yoda said:

Agree with what has been said above

Both look genuine 

The only thing I would slightly question, is that when spiders die, their legs often curl up under the body. But I have seen this not happen in a few pieces of Burmese Amber that I have 

 

Nice pieces 

 

On 8/20/2022 at 9:26 PM, daves64 said:

I would call both genuine. Air bubbles in amber are common, almost as common as regular debris (dirt, leaf bits & the like). The "fuzz" around the ant is, I believe, caused by the outgassing caused by the insect decaying & would be very hard to fake & not really worth the effort. Usually, a fake inclusion is not only centered in the piece, but also posed (legs and/or wings spread out) with little to no other inclusions (air bubbles or anything else) present to make it more appealing to draw a higher price. 

Also I was wondering what do you guys think is the area I circled in black? It's on the surface and looks like rubbed plastic kind of hard to see in the picture unfortunately but the best I could muster.  

Edited August 21, 2022 by Sofyar

[Top Trilo]

49 minutes ago, Sofyar said:

Interesting. Do you think the Spider might be in Copal? Because in my experience Copal does not react to UV light like Amber does. Also it is VERY hard I pressed it with full force in my hand (something that would affect copal) but it didn't nudge one bit. Also I would say the color doesn't fit the usual color I see for copal almost looking like wax, contrary to the very recognizable amber color that fits it perfectly.

My unexpert opinion is that it is amber. Copal is just young amber, its not like one day copal is non-fluorescent and soft and the next day its fluorescent and hard as a rock. Its a spectrum from resin to amber and I've been told some amber doesn't fluoresce and some copal does. Yours does seem a lot like amber though. I don't have lots of experience in the area though.

[Randyw]

There is dominican copal but it is rarer then dominican amber. It is usually lighter in color then the amber and with more air bubbles inside. It doesnt react to the u.v. Light though. I won’t say in all cases but in my experience ( handled and examined a few thousand and own over 300 pieces) the u.v. Method is the best and most reliable method for differentiating copal from amber. Copal normally has a hardness of 1.5-2 where amber has a hardness of 2-2.5. Some copal will pass the saltwater test also. Thats why i go with the u.v. Test. The hot needle test can damage amber so i don’t use it either.

 I usually use a 8-12 power hand held magnifier for normal inspection and go up from there for closer inspections…..

[Sofyar]

10 minutes ago, Randyw said:

There is dominican copal but it is rarer then dominican amber. It is usually lighter in color then the amber and with more air bubbles inside. It doesnt react to the u.v. Light though. I won’t say in all cases but in my experience ( handled and examined a few thousand and own over 300 pieces) the u.v. Method is the best and most reliable method for differentiating copal from amber. Copal normally has a hardness of 1.5-2 where amber has a hardness of 2-2.5. Some copal will pass the saltwater test also. Thats why i go with the u.v. Test. The hot needle test can damage amber so i don’t use it either.

 I usually use a 8-12 power hand held magnifier for normal inspection and go up from there for closer inspections…..

Interesting. And what do you look for to detect faux inclusions in real amber, meaning traces of glue and cuts in the Amber? Also what do you think about the picture I posted with the weird small section of what looks like scratched plastic? it's a few comments up. And also I would love to see some of your Amber inclusions the ones you are proud of, if it's no bother of course!

[Top Trilo]

21 minutes ago, Randyw said:

There is dominican copal but it is rarer then dominican amber. It is usually lighter in color then the amber and with more air bubbles inside. It doesnt react to the u.v. Light though. I won’t say in all cases but in my experience ( handled and examined a few thousand and own over 300 pieces) the u.v. Method is the best and most reliable method for differentiating copal from amber.

Do you know why amber is fluorescent but copal isn't? Aren't they practically the same thing?