Tooth, barb, bone

[Shellseeker]

Out yesterday,  found some odds and ends for ID...

Tooth.... Note the serrations.

 

A Barb or something else...

 

Toe bone... I cleaned it with a water_bleach solution... Glad I did  as the texture became clearer....

 

I have seen a MUCH larger version of this fossil,  just hope it also comes a a smaller version...

 

[Al Dente]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

Tooth.... Note the serrations.

Looks like part of a Hemipristis lower anterior tooth.

[digit]

9 minutes ago, Al Dente said:

Looks like part of a Hemipristis lower anterior tooth.

Or possible even a symphyseal from this species:

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/gallery/image/112-hemipristis-symphyseal/

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Meganeura]

2 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Toe bone... I cleaned it with a water_bleach solution... Glad I did  as the texture became clearer....

Looks like a horse toe bone from what I've seen online - at that size if it's not a juvenille Equus it's gotta be tridactyl, right?

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Al Dente said:

Looks like part of a Hemipristis lower anterior tooth.

 

56 minutes ago, digit said:

Or possible even a symphyseal from this species:

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/gallery/image/112-hemipristis-symphyseal/

Cheers. -Ken

Thanks for the insights.... Al Dente, do you think symphyseal is possible ?

 

I had just finished hunting yesterday, and my hunting friend and I were "gifting" each other those "fossils" each had found that the other like best....(example, I give him most of the Megs I find and he gives me most of the Tridactyl teeth/bones he finds.)

And I have to leave quickly to drive home...

 

He asks for an ID,  maybe thinking it is Dolphin .. I did not note the serrations until I got home. Once I see the serrations and the 'curve' near the tip,  I am also thinking Hemi... but the root fragment is throwing me off. 

Every symphyseal Hemi I find is small ... This rootless one is 30 mm... is 1.2 inch

[Shellseeker]

19 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

Looks like a horse toe bone from what I've seen online - at that size if it's not a juvenille Equus it's gotta be tridactyl, right?

I agree it looks like Horse.... It is ONLY 17 mm !!!! I am unsure what sizes should be associated with a medial phalanx.. Tapir looks very close also, and we are dealing with a Miocene location, which may imply different fauna.. Hopefully, Harry has some in his collection....

[Meganeura]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

 

Thanks for the insights.... Al Dente, do you think symphyseal is possible ?

 

I had just finished hunting yesterday, and my hunting friend and I were "gifting" each other those "fossils" each had found that the other like best....(example, I give him most of the Megs I find and he gives me most of the Tridactyl teeth/bones he finds.)

And I have to leave quickly to drive home...

 

He asks for an ID,  maybe thinking it is Dolphin .. I did not note the serrations until I got home. Once I see the serrations and the 'curve' near the tip,  I am also thinking Hemi... but the root fragment is throwing me off. 

Every symphyseal Hemi I find is small ... This rootless one is 30 mm... is 1.2 inch

My personal take is a slightly pathological lower Hemi. I mean, that shape + serrations... I don't see how it could be anything but a Hemi, really.

[Al Dente]

10 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Thanks for the insights.... Al Dente, do you think symphyseal is possible ?

I think it can turn into a semantics argument when talking about the difference between symphyseal, parasymphyseal and anterior. Do only teeth found on the symphysis get to be called symphyseal? Or can teeth in the general area be called symphyseal? Some people call the teeth beside, but not including, the symphysis “parasymphyseal”. If you look at modern Hemipristis jaws, there is a clear symphysis lacking teeth but with teeth next to it. Here’s an example from www.elasmo website.

 

Here is another example from the j-elasmo website. How many of these teeth should be labeled symphyseal? Just the first? Hard to decide.

 

 

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, Al Dente said:

I think it can turn into a semantics argument when talking about the difference between symphyseal, parasymphyseal and anterior. Do only teeth found on the symphysis get to be called symphyseal? Or can teeth in the general area be called symphyseal? Some people call the teeth beside, but not including, the symphysis “parasymphyseal”. If you look at modern Hemipristis jaws, there is a clear symphysis lacking teeth but with teeth next to it. Here’s an example from www.elasmo website.

Thanks for the nuanced response.. Ken's post had me considering whether I would consider 1st-3rd from the left as "symphyseal/parasymphyseal"..  and I believe I have... its the narrow squeezed root I focus on... and a very few of my finds seemed to show minimal serrations on the 2nd from left.  It came down to wondering what was the "size" outer range for @Northern Sharks Calvert Cliffs versions. 

[Coco]

4 hours ago, Al Dente said:

Do only teeth found on the symphysis get to be called symphyseal? Or can teeth in the general area be called symphyseal?

Great question !

From my point of view, I have always considered that a symphysar tooth was alone at the symphysis, and that the parasymphyseal teeth were 1 on each side of the symphysis when there was no symphysar tooth. What is your personal thought @Al Dente?

 

Um, am I clear in what I’m saying ?

 

Coco

[digit]

No, Coco--that's pretty much my definition of symphyseal/parasymphyseal. Sharks like the cookiecutters have a clear middle (symphyseal) tooth. I forget which general of sharks have teeth directly on the symphysis and which (like Hemipristis) have a pair of parasymphyseals on either side of the midline. When you find an isolated tooth like a hemi or a Carcharias taurus it is hard to remember to use the prefix (para-) but it is much easier when looking at an extant tooth set in a preserved set of jaws.

 

http://www.elasmo.com/cunningham/c_taurus/sc_ct-over.html

 

 

Teeth astride the parasymphyseals should more properly be called first anteriors using this method.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Shellseeker]

20 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Toe bone... I cleaned it with a water_bleach solution... Glad I did  as the texture became clearer....

 

Richard Hulbert has responded on this bone...

Quote

... The specimen in images 7036ce and 7037ce is from a tortoise. I do not know which bone is shown in images 7067cs and 7083ce, but I don’t think it is an astragalus.

Richard

7036ce and 7037ce is the bone pictured above...  I guess Tortoise toe bone. I will search the internet for similar examples....

[Shellseeker]

26 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

 

Richard Hulbert has responded on this bone...

7036ce and 7037ce is the bone pictured above...  I guess Tortoise toe bone. I will search the internet for similar examples....

@digit Hmmm.. I am looking for a small Miocene tortoise that existed in Florida.... maybe Stylemys ?? Have you seen any of it's toe bones?

[digit]

I've only seen Trachemys (turtle) toes.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

[Shellseeker]

On 9/5/2022 at 1:31 PM, digit said:

I've only seen Trachemys (turtle) toes.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

Keep looking...

Geochelone tedwhitei,  there are some out there...

 

And then this very nice 13 inch Tortoise from the Miocene of Texas

 

But I have no pictures of toebones....yet