Bone Valley, Florida - Canine tooth ID help!

[Meganeura]

So found this today - my immediate thought was canine. Originally thought no enamel - but I brushed it, with a tooth brush - and it’s got white enamel. So… any help is appreciated! @Harry Pristis @Shellseeker

 

 

After brushing:

Edited September 11, 2022 by Meganeura
Added brushed tooth pic

[Meganeura]

Couple more pics!

[Meganeura]

And even more pics now that it’s fully dried - the enamel is much more visible. 

[Meganeura]

One way to eliminate some possibilities. @Boesse does this look like a whale tooth to you?

[Shellseeker]

I think it resembles a dolphin tooth more than a whale tooth. I have some teeth ( that came from the phosphate mines). and have this white fossilization. 

What are the odds that this came from the mines? It makes a difference on which dolphins existed 3 myas and which were 12-16 myas.

 

[Meganeura]

2 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

I think it resembles a dolphin tooth more than a whale tooth. I have some teeth ( that came from the phosphate mines). and have this white fossilization. 

What are the odds that this came from the mines? It makes a difference on which dolphins existed 3 myas and which were 12-16 myas.

 

Not a mine tooth - it’s from the dry dig site, which also has tridactyl horses, so we’re talking earlier Miocene. I was comparing it to some Dolphin teeth and it just didn’t seem to fit as far as shape goes, but I’m no expert.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Meganeura

[Shellseeker]

Since you think it is miocene and think it could be dolphin, you could search the internet or TFF for “Miocene Dolphin” and find items like

Also, @siteseer has some insights on Miocene marine mammals. among many other talents

[Meganeura]

1 minute ago, Shellseeker said:

Since you think it is miocene and think it could be dolphin, you could search the internet or TFF for “Miocene Dolphin” and find items like

Also, @siteseer has some insights on Miocene marine mammals. among many other talents

Actually that was one of the first things I did - and the only comparably sized dolphin teeth were from the Oligocene (Squalodon, I think?) - long-beaked are close but still about an inch under-sized with smaller tips from what I could find.

[Shellseeker]

https://ancientearthtradingco.com/fossils/shark-teeth/2-31-inch-fossil-dolphin-tooth-odontoceti-indet-from-sharktooth-hill-california.html

I copied Siteseer because he knows Sharktooth Hill, also micene

[Meganeura]

5 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

https://ancientearthtradingco.com/fossils/shark-teeth/2-31-inch-fossil-dolphin-tooth-odontoceti-indet-from-sharktooth-hill-california.html

I copied Siteseer because he knows Sharktooth Hill, also micene

I saw that, and a similar sea lion tooth that were comparable: https://ancientearthtradingco.com/fossils/shark-teeth/4-42-inch-fossil-pinniped-sea-lion-seal-tooth-allodesmus-kernensis-from-sharktooth-hill-california.html

But did florida have either? @siteseer I'll wait for your and Bobby's expertise, I think. But my biggest problem with Dolphin being the case is that while my tooth has the increase in width before the enamel, it's nowhere near as pronounced as the many other Dolphin teeth i've seen - including the one linked. Mine seems much more gradual. Not sure if that's actually important, though, but that was what made me originally think canine.

Edited September 12, 2022 by Meganeura

[Shellseeker]

Over the last decade, I have come to believe that there were larger dolphin teeth, similar to some found at Calvert Cliffs and Shark tooth Hill, found in the Bone Valley Phosphate mines and similar Florida Miocene layers outside of the mines. The one below is 70 millimeters .. broken

 

[Meganeura]

7 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Over the last decade, I have come to believe that there were larger dolphin teeth, similar to some found at Calvert Cliffs and Shark tooth Hill, found in the Bone Valley Phosphate mines and similar Florida Miocene layers outside of the mines. The one below is 70 millimeters .. broken

 

Okay, that's quite the dolphin tooth, lol. And definitely similarly shaped too - though still quite a bit more bulbous directly before the enamel when compared to mine. 

[Meganeura]

So I've been looking and comparing to different canines, and felid lower canines seem to be the biggest match in my opinion. For example:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/saber-tooth-cat-fossil-lower-canine-1978359520

Rhizosmilodon lower:



I could be totally wrong, of course, but it's looking like a shoe-in to me, the shape and all. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Meganeura

[Shellseeker]

Felid canines from South Florida are some of the most difficult teeth to Identify .  Some of them have serrations/cusps which makes it easier.

This is Xenosmilus from the early Pliocene. Note the serrations. About 3 inches. I got to hold it for about 30 seconds... it was enough...

You could read the material on UF MNH website on NALMAs and identify the very few felids that have been named from the Florida Miocene.

I imagine you have asked Richard for an ID... what did he say?

Another potential source of knowledge is PrehistoricFlorida. Website on the Internet. He has an impressive personal collection of Florida predator teeth,

 

 

 

[Meganeura]

2 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

Felid canines from South Florida are some of the most difficult teeth to Identify .  Some of them have serrations/cusps which makes it easier.

This is Xenosmilus from the early Pliocene. Note the serrations. About 3 inches. I got to hold it for about 30 seconds... it was enough...

You could read the material on UF MNH website on NALMAs and identify the very few felids that have been named from the Florida Miocene.

I imagine you have asked Richard for an ID... what did he say?

Another potential source of knowledge is PrehistoricFlorida. Website on the Internet. He has an impressive personal collection of Florida predator teeth,

 

Richard hasn’t responded actually, unfortunately. That’s why I’ve been so persistent, I’m waiting to hear back! He’s retiring end of month so I’m sure he’s quite busy, though.

Also my tooth is... definitely missing too much enamel to tell if there were serrations - only has the enamel on the backside of the tooth. If it had those serrations it would be an easy ID, I'm sure!

 

I’ll definitely ask prehistoricflorida - didn’t realize he did ID’s!

[Meganeura]

@Shellseeker PrehistoricFlorida is unsure. So, back to waiting on Hulbert to respond, if he ever gets around to it. 

[siteseer]

I've compared that tooth to what I have from the Sharktooth Hill Bonebed and I've consulted the fourth Lee Creek volume as well as Hulbert's book.  I haven't found a match though I must admit I was looking at just whale teeth.  If it's from a site representing a terrestrial environment, that's not much help.  It looks like a whale tooth at first glance.

 

Yeah, Nate and Harry have seen a lot of Florida stuff.  I'll try to contact @fossillarry too.

[Meganeura]

2 minutes ago, siteseer said:

I've compared that tooth to what I have from the Sharktooth Hill Bonebed and I've consulted the fourth Lee Creek volume as well as Hulbert's book.  I haven't found a match though I must admit I was looking at just whale teeth.  If it's from a site representing a terrestrial environment, that's not much help.  It looks like a whale tooth at first glance.

 

Yeah, Nate and Harry have seen a lot of Florida stuff.  I'll try to contact @fossillarry too.

It's from a mix - I find Megs and other shark teeth, whale teeth, tridactyl horse teeth, a mastodon cusp... @Done Drillin found a Rhizosmilodon upper canine (Id'd by Hulbert). Big mix.

But doesn't match any whale teeth, huh? Harry said his gut instinct was also whale, but not any whale he's seen - though he said that he didn't have any evidence to support that either, just intuition.

[siteseer]

I'm sorry to hear Richard is retiring.  I've had a chance to meet and talk with him in person a few times.  He's a nice guy too.  The thing about paleontologists is that they almost never really retire.  It just means they don't have the same job.  They get back to writing papers they started researching years ago - even back in school.

[Meganeura]

5 minutes ago, siteseer said:

I'm sorry to hear Richard is retiring.  I've had a chance to meet and talk with him in person a few times.  He's a nice guy too.  The thing about paleontologists is that they almost never really retire.  It just means they don't have the same job.  They get back to writing papers they started researching years ago - even back in school.

Agreed - and I know he's done a hell of a lot for the fossil community. Regardless, I appreciate you taking a look! Now we just wait on @Boesse, Larry, and possibly Hulbert, I guess. Never thought I'd find a complete tooth that's got so many people unsure!

[siteseer]

2 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

It's from a mix - I find Megs and other shark teeth, whale teeth, tridactyl horse teeth, a mastodon cusp... @Done Drillin found a Rhizosmilodon upper canine (Id'd by Hulbert). Big mix.

But doesn't match any whale teeth, huh? Harry said his gut instinct was also whale, but not any whale he's seen - though he said that he didn't have any evidence to support that either, just intuition.

 

I think Harry is right.  Whale teeth can be so variable so you might find a tooth that is sort of like it and they might be from the same genus or species.  It will be interesting to read what Nate thinks too.

 

I'm thinking whale because land mammal canines tend to curve more especially something of that size while whale teeth can be more straight like that one.

[siteseer]

1 minute ago, Meganeura said:

Agreed - and I know he's done a hell of a lot for the fossil community. Regardless, I appreciate you taking a look! Now we just wait on @Boesse, Larry, and possibly Hulbert, I guess. Never thought I'd find a complete tooth that's got so many people unsure!

 

isolated teeth can be tough especially when they follow a simple form.

[Meganeura]

1 minute ago, siteseer said:

 

I think Harry is right.  Whale teeth can be so variable so you might find a tooth that is sort of like it and they might be from the same genus or species.  It will be interesting to read what Nate thinks too.

 

I'm thinking whale because land mammal canines tend to curve more especially something of that size while whale teeth can be more straight like that one.

I can understand that - what stops it from being a felid canine though? All of the ones I've seen are about as straight as the one I have - the only curve seems to be the blade itself, which... well, mine being worn away could account for that, no? I'm probably reaching here, honestly.

[siteseer]

4 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

I can understand that - what stops it from being a felid canine though? All of the ones I've seen are about as straight as the one I have - the only curve seems to be the blade itself, which... well, mine being worn away could account for that, no? I'm probably reaching here, honestly.

 

Cat canines are super-rare so I lean toward more likely possibilities.  If I stop to consider a cat more in depth, those apparent striations point me more toward whale than cat because their canines tend to be smooth.  Your tooth is pretty weathered.  You might not get a solid answer, but by now, you know that's how fossil collecting can go.

[Meganeura]

1 minute ago, siteseer said:

 

Cat canines are super-rare so I lean toward more likely possibilities.  If I stop to consider a cat more in depth, those apparent striations point me more toward whale than cat because their canines tend to be smooth.  Your tooth is pretty weathered.  You might not get a solid answer, but by now, you know that's how fossil collecting can go.

That makes perfect sense. Would be quite the strange whale tooth if it is whale, no? I can’t seem to find anything that matches it at all for whales!