Ceratosaurus tooth?

[Dino Dad 81]

Hey all,

Curious to get your thoughts on a new addition:

• Tiourarén formation, Niger
• CH: 44.2mm
• CBL: 24.2mm
• CBW: 10.1mm
• Mesial serration density: 14/5mm
• Distal serration density: 13/5mm
• Transverse undulations present
• Mesial denticles extend to the base, more fitting for the Morrison formation
• The preservation isn't what I'm used to from the Tiourarén formation, but I've seen some that are similar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks!!

[Troodon]

Kem Kem tooth?

[Dino Dad 81]

@Troodon

 

George and I thought it might be a Ceratosaurus from Madagascar, so I pounded away on the location front.

 

Seller:

"It's Niger, came with a bunch of diagnostic sauropod teeth and shipped from Niger."

 

Upon further pushing:

"I matched the matrix to a couple sauropods and an afrovenator."

 

 

 

Also, I think my fancy pics were over-saturated and too orangey:

Edited September 16, 2022 by Dino Dad 81

[Troodon]

It does fit the characteristics of Ceratosaurus we typically see.  Its nothing like the limited number we see published from Niger so not sure what to say.  If you are sure its a Tiourarén tooth great.  Do you have a locality?  

[Dino Dad 81]

@Troodon

The listing included:

“2" (5.1 cm) tooth from an unknown theropod possibly a Ceratosaur from the Tiouraren Formation of the Agadez region of Niger.”

[Troodon]

Agadez region so which one should we pick?   Thats the Irhazer Shale Fm with the Tiourarén Fm.

What sauropod teeth from Niger are diagnostic to the Tiourarén?

 

 

@Haravex  Hey Matt have you see this color preservation on Niger teeth?

[Phos_01]

Hello, my thought was that this was a Carcharodontosaurus tooth, color wise it looks like Kem Kem.

If its from Niger its definitely an interesting find and well preserved. 

9 hours ago, Troodon said:

It does fit the characteristics of Ceratosaurus we typically see

just out of curiosity , Issn't a Ceratosaurus tooth thicker seen in profile view? and move curved. This one thin blade shaped, just like Carch 

[Troodon]

1 hour ago, Phos_01 said:

just out of curiosity , Issn't a Ceratosaurus tooth thicker seen in profile view? and move curved. This one thin blade shaped, just like Carch 

 

Anterior ones are more oval in the shape of the base.  Lateral teeth can be quite thin blade.   Here is a replica maxilla of one from the Morrison.  I have no clue what a dentition of one from Niger looks like.

 

[Troodon]

And one long thin one almost  4" from Portugal

[Dino Dad 81]

17 hours ago, Troodon said:

Agadez region so which one should we pick?   Thats the Irhazer Shale Fm with the Tiourarén Fm.

What sauropod teeth from Niger are diagnostic to the Tiourarén?

 

 

@Haravex  Hey Matt have you see this color preservation on Niger teeth?

 

Spinophorosaurus and Jobaria. These teeth were listed for sale as well.

 

• A few weeks back we were figuring out on the forum whether to accept that ceratosaurus was even in Niger. We put that to rest and now we’re questioning this incredible match to wealth of information from Morrison ceratosaurus because of the extremely limited cerato data from Niger?

• I posted this same tooth in that cerato/Niger thread and @Troodon said it was probably ceratosaurus. Now, with way more supporting locality information and pics that make it look all the more ceratosaurus, it's being questioned over attributes that were in the original photos back when we had almost no information on it?

• It’s clearly not Carch. Not sure why nobody has disabused that one. Can anyone share a 2” Kem Kem tooth that looks like this before we take all the strong location information from the seller and throw it out the window?

 

I'm not trying to have us land on anything incorrect. Just sanity checking the soundness and consistency of the consideration process, given how this thread is playing out. It sure wasn't this way when I posted these Niger teeth month back.

 

Hey, looks like #2 might be cerato. And it's preservation seems to lie somewhere right smack in between #1 and the tooth I made this thread about.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Dino Dad 81

[FB003]

I don't think the coloring prevents it from being a carcharodontosaurid based on teeth I've seen historically at least. That said, I don't think anyone said with certainty that it was either. The only mention I see is a request for clarification as a learning opportunity which was then where the reference to Morrison teeth came into play.  

 

I'm curious though - Why the 2nd ID on this tooth if it was already ID'd and you were happy with it? It may be beneficial to reference the original ID thread as a disclaimer if you are looking for 2nd ID's - just a recommendation. 

[Dino Dad 81]

@FB003 @Troodon

• The first ID in my general Niger cerato thread was explicitly tentative. I even left off that thread saying I’d know more soon and be back to help things along. Since then, the tooth has arrived at my location. An appropriate time to follow up.
• I never said folks were settling on carch. It's just that it's certainly not carch and I didn't think we'd be moving in the right direction without that being acknowledged before moving on to the next boxes. Once we establish that, I think there may be a clear line of thinking to ruling out Kem Kem altogether, as I've alluded to above. For example, is there even an example of a non-carch tooth in Kem Kem that's this big and resembles this particular tooth? Maybe there aren’t any and maybe we can find several examples of teeth with this sort of preservation from Tiouraren. Perhaps we can rule out the Kem Kem mess? That's what we're here for, right? Narrowing the pool and, ideally, ID'ing.
• I never said carch should be ruled out on the basis of color either. It should be ruled out on the basis of morphology.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Dino Dad 81

[FB003]

I’m not saying what it is or isn’t. I have no clue. 
 

Carcharodontosaurid doesn’t mean Kem Kem though. I think that may be causing confusion which is why I spoke up. However, I don’t believe there is a carcharodontosaurid in this formation but just nearby in Elhraz.

[Dino Dad 81]

Ahh, maybe I associated the Kem Kem comment with yours and I shouldn’t have.

What would it fit in Elhraz?

[FB003]

I believe Eocarchia but if its definitely Tiourarén formation I believe that's a moot point.  Again, I don't know what it is.  No experience with these teeth.  Just saying a Carcharodontosaurid is not entirely impossible. That's all. 

[Dino Dad 81]

Does it resemble an Eocarcharia tooth?

[FB003]

To me, yes but again not familiar with them.  But there is no Eocarchia in the formation this is from I believe. So if you are sure on formation, not possible unless I'm mistaken. Like Troodon mentioned I think Haravex might have some knowledge on these.  In the meantime, I found this a good read.

 

 

[Dino Dad 81]

..

Edited September 20, 2022 by Dino Dad 81

[FB003]

I would recommend patiently waiting for Haravex to provide input in that case. Perhaps the ones I saw were mislabeled.

[Haravex]

I've had a ceratosaurus tooth from this location and I've seen another one owned from the irhazer/tiouraen fm the color and preservation can vary quite a bit from this location to heavly crushed to just came out of the jaw yesterday. In terms of colours I've seen cream, black, beige and deep maroon. The matrix at the base suggests irhazer (had the same matrix on spinophorosaurus which is very different to elrhaz) and that is certainly not a Carcharodontosaurus tooth based on preservation and the fact you cannot under any circumstances go to the eckhar formation (border with Mali nearly certainly be kidnapped or worse, and not before passing French and USA military mining uranium in the northern region).

As for the exact specifications of the tooth I can only comment that mine had distinct fluting and serrations same with the other I've seen in another's collection.

[Dino Dad 81]

I'm doubling down and getting these two other teeth that came in the same batch. Three unusual teeth that compare well with each other from the same batch--I can even fantasize that they may be associated. 

#2

 

#3

 

 

 

And a Jobaria. I usually try to cover the main fauna in due course anyway. Best they come from the same batch in this case..

[Dino Dad 81]

The others just arrived. So all of these teeth came in the same lot from Niger. All three theropod teeth were listed as unknown but with a "ceratosaurus?" slipped in there, but it's not clear to me that they're from the same species. Interestingly, the smallest has serrations that end 2/3 down. I'll post them later to see if you have ideas on what they are.

 

 

[Dino Dad 81]

So, if we can move along from preservation/location, I'd like to get back to Ceratosaurus. I got so sidetracked by the strange direction the thread was going in that I didn't even think to show a comparison to a cast I have of a LM4 Ceratorsaurus tooth from the Morrison formation. Is there any way this doesn't come from Ceratosaurus (accounting for variation in tooth position)? And looking at how incredibly long the crowns are, it seems like there's a good chance there'd have been enough additional crown to this tooth to reveal that the mesial carina only extends 2/3 down.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dino Dad 81]

Troodon has let me know he will no longer be commenting on anything involving a Jurassic Niger tooth (for anyone), due to insufficient data on the region (as we know, he's someone who deals only in things for which there are precedents). Please tag anyone who might be able to provide input. Witch-doctors and Warlocks are welcome!