garyc Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 Not sure if the identification section is the right place to post this because I know it is a Pleistocene Horse tooth from the Brazos river in southeast Texas. However I’m wondering if this is a pathological tooth or a cavity. I’ve found well over 100 horse teeth and none of them have this feature. I appreciate any insights 1 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jikohr Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 Nice one! Could it be from an abscess? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyc Posted September 23, 2022 Author Share Posted September 23, 2022 15 minutes ago, jikohr said: Nice one! Could it be from an abscess? That’s kinda what I’m thinking. Looks painful! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 I found one with this too and was wondering the same thing! I'll see if I can dig it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 My best guess was that mine was a cavity too. 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jikohr Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 The main reason I'm guessing abscess vs cavity is that a cavity would be above the gumline in the part of the molar that was in the mouth. These look to be from pretty well below the gumline and deep in the jawbone (which are just the absolute WORST). Of course I'm not a dentist and maybe the terminology is different for fossils and or animals. But yeah, those both look like they had a nasty and painful infection deep in their jaw bone. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 Horses Get Cavities Too! Horse’s teeth have the same composition as human teeth and just like humans, they can get cavities 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 9 hours ago, garyc said: Not sure if the identification section is the right place to post this because I know it is a Pleistocene Horse tooth from the Brazos river in southeast Texas. Moved to QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS. 1 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyc Posted September 23, 2022 Author Share Posted September 23, 2022 2 hours ago, minnbuckeye said: Horses Get Cavities Too! Horse’s teeth have the same composition as human teeth and just like humans, they can get cavities This makes complete sense. I’m just surprised this is the first tooth I’ve found with an abscess or cavity, especially considering the number of holes that have been filled in my own mouth. I guess horses eat a healthier diet than I do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 2 hours ago, garyc said: This makes complete sense. I’m just surprised this is the first tooth I’ve found with an abscess or cavity, especially considering the number of holes that have been filled in my own mouth. I guess horses eat a healthier diet than I do. Indeed, that plays a major role! In 40 years of veterinary practice, I have seen a dozen or so caries and NONE have seemed to bother the horse. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 52 minutes ago, minnbuckeye said: a dozen or so caries Learned a new term. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coco Posted September 23, 2022 Share Posted September 23, 2022 Oh ! It is the same word in french ! Easy to remember ! Coco 1 ---------------------- OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici Un Greg... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted September 24, 2022 Share Posted September 24, 2022 @minnbuckeye So do these look like abscesses or cavities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted September 24, 2022 Share Posted September 24, 2022 On 9/22/2022 at 9:36 PM, garyc said: An abscess occurs if a cavity is allowed to progress. If you notice, boney proliferation is very visible around the hole indicative of advanced disease. Abscesses are termed periapical if it occurs at the tip of the root. Periodontal abscesses however occur on the side of the tooth. So I would term this a peridontal dental abscess!! Nice find. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macrophyseter Posted September 25, 2022 Share Posted September 25, 2022 Quite unfortunate that they must have not found a dentist during the Pleistocene! 1 If you're a fossil nut from Palos Verdes, San Pedro, Redondo Beach, or Torrance, feel free to shoot me a PM! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted September 26, 2022 Share Posted September 26, 2022 On 9/24/2022 at 4:23 AM, minnbuckeye said: An abscess occurs if a cavity is allowed to progress. If you notice, boney proliferation is very visible around the hole indicative of advanced disease. Abscesses are termed periapical if it occurs at the tip of the root. Periodontal abscesses however occur on the side of the tooth. So I would term this a peridontal dental abscess!! Nice find. I thought it could have been a case of a mollusk drilling into it after the tooth was lost but I don't know if any freshwater ones do that. It's great to have a veterinarian on the forum to notice the detail that identifies the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Cole Posted September 27, 2022 Share Posted September 27, 2022 Thanks @minnbuckeye. Always nice to learn something new! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Done Drillin Posted September 30, 2022 Share Posted September 30, 2022 As a dentist I find this very intriguing. In humans, as in animals there are generally 2 types of abscesses , periapical (caused by the pulp deteriorating), and periodontal( caused by a defect in the periodontium ,usually “pocketing” or bone loss).Neither of these processes result in the type of lesion that these teeth exhibit. A periapical abscess will arise if the nerve or pulp is compromised and dies , usually from bacterial invasion caused by caries or trauma. When the pulp which is composed of nerve tissue and it’s associated vein and artery dies the material will necrose and drain through the apex of the tooth. From there the noxious material will eventually take the path of least resistance and create a fistula through the bone and gingiva and drain itself into the oral cavity. A periodontal abscess will arise in the structures that support the tooth in the bone ( periodontium). In over 30 years of practice I have never seen or heard of either type of abscess causing such a lesion in the tooth itself. Human teeth will also exhibit different types of resorption that will destroy the tooth itself, either internally or externally, but once again the lesions look nothing like this . Human teeth will exhibit accessory lateral nerve canals that exit the tooth away from the apex and I am wondering if the areas on the horse teeth are from one of these accessory canals. I realize humans and horses are not the same dentally so comparing the two is like comparing apples to oranges, but I am certainly curious about the process that caused these odd areas. @minnbuckeye what are your thoughts on this ? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 @Done Drillin, Let me start by saying that my "opinion" is more of a suggested possibility for the defect in the tooth presented. There would be many reasons for such a lesion. Here is a shortened research article on dental caries in equine. Free Access Post mortem survey of peripheral dental caries in 510 Swedish horses Summary Reasons for performing study: Peripheral caries (PC) of equine teeth is a poorly described disorder that can cause serious clinical problems if it progresses. Objectives: To assess the prevalence, sites and severity of PC in a population of Swedish horses. Results: PC only affected the cheek teeth (CT) and was present in 6.1% (31/510) of skulls. It affected mainly the peripheral cementum, and 87% of PC in the 29 affected mature horses occurred in the 3 caudal CT (Triadan 09-11). Concurrent infundibular caries involving most maxillary CT (mean 9.7/skull) was present in 32% of skulls affected with PC. Trotting horses (mean age 8.1 years) believed to be on a high concentrate and silage diet were preferentially affected with PC in this population. Food was usually tightly adherent to the PC lesions and this feature may have promoted the progression of the disease. Significantly increased levels of diastemata were present in PC-affected horses, and periodontal disease was present in areas adjacent to some PC lesions. Conclusions: PC is a relatively common disorder of horses under certain management conditions that can progress to cause serious dental disorders, especially if concurrent, widespread infundibular caries is present. Potential relevance: Equine clinicians should be aware of this significant dental disorder and research into its aetiopathogenesis, possible prevention and treatment are required. Introduction Dental caries is defined as a bacterial disease of the calcified dental tissues, characterised by demineralisation of the inorganic and destruction of the organic dental structures (Soames and Southam 2005). Peripheral caries (PC), which usually affects the cheek teeth (CT), has been recorded briefly in horses (Baker 1979; Easley 1991; Dacre 2006; Dixon et al. 2010), with short descriptions of its pathology given by Dacre (2005) and du Toit et al. (2008a). Although sometimes termed peripheral cemental caries, progression of this disorder leads to caries of the underlying enamel and dentine (du Toit et al. 2008a) and so PC is a more suitable term for this disorder (Dixon et al. 2010). The anatomical location of caries on the periphery of affected CT differentiates PC from the well described disorder of infundibular caries that affects maxillary CT only (Colyer 1906; Honma et al. 1962; Baker 1974; Kilic et al. 1997a; Brigham and Duncanson 2000; du Toit et al. 2008a). Caries (of all the calcified dental tissues) can also occur in equine teeth secondary to dental fractures (Dacre et al. 2007), apical infections (Dacre et al. 2008a,b), and in incisors and canine teeth affected with equine odontoclastic tooth resorption and hypercementosis (EOTRH) syndrome (Staszyk et al. 2008). In addition to the initial loss of cementum around the periphery of CT, destruction of peripheral cementum can also occur deep in cemental infoldings, thus contributing to increased occlusal wear in PC-affected CT (Dacre 2005). PC may also initiate the development of CT diastema by causing destruction of interproximal calcified tissues, and also instigates periodontal disease by damaging the normal tight junction between gingiva and peripheral cementum at the gingival margin (Dacre 2005). Destruction of peripheral cementum also allows the development of protruding areas of brittle enamel on the occlusal surface that may be prone to fracture (Dacre 2005). PC is anecdotally stated to preferentially affect the more caudally located CT in horses (Dacre 2006), which can be difficult to fully examine clinically, and therefore this disorder may be clinically underdiagnosed. Severe, widespread PC affecting groups of horses has been associated with feeding silage with high levels of added acid, and also with feeding high levels of processed maize foodstuffs (Dixon et al. 2010). Despite the above reports, little objective information is available on the prevalence or degree of equine PC in different horse populations. The purpose of this study was to describe the prevalence and gross appearance of PC at post mortem examination in a population of horses examined in 2 Swedish horse abattoirs. Table 1. Grading of equine dental caries Zero degree: No evidence of caries on a macroscopic level, but can include central infundibular cemental hypoplasia First degree: Caries only affects cementum – subdivided into: Class 1 Small, pitting superficial focal lesions Class 2 Extensive destruction and loss of cementum Second degree: Caries extends into adjacent enamel Third degree: Caries extends into adjacent enamel and dentine Fourth degree: Advanced caries affects the integrity of the tooth, predisposing to apical abscess or dental fracture Fifth degree: Extensive caries results in tooth loss From this article, it is obvious that dental caries in equine is not a high priority research item so knowledge in this area is limited. My practical perspective dealing with dental abnormalities in animals has taught me that a defect in a tooth for any reason leads to calculus ( a HARD substance created from plaque build up and subsequent mineralization on the surface of the tooth..... for the reader's info, not yours!!!). This buildup is as hard as a rock, not easily removed!!!! Once calculus forms on an animal not offered dental help, is likely to remain with the tooth until the tooth is lost to decay. My mistake in hindsight was to call it "boney proliferation" instead of calculus buildup around a defect in the tooth. Again, this is just a suggested possibility!!! Mike 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Done Drillin Posted October 4, 2022 Share Posted October 4, 2022 I would tend to agree with you that is a “ boney proliferation” of some sort and that’s what has me intrigued . As I see the pictures the lesions appear to be near the apex in an area that I assume would be sub - crestal and therefore not subject to calculus formation unless advanced periodontal disease was present. Having never seen anything like this just had me wondering about the biology of the process behind the lesions, and I do feel they are lesions, and not a developmental part of the tooth itself. I tried to educate myself on horse teeth a bit and like you said there’s not a whole lot out there on the subject. It might not be out of the norm for a carious horse tooth to necrose and fistulate out of the side of the tooth rather than draining through the apex. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted April 4, 2023 Share Posted April 4, 2023 The illustrated craters are in horse enamel, not in cementum as was found in the cited Swedish study. The craters have a raised rim in the above illustrations. This rim is indistinguishable from the enamel; it doesn't appear to be bone overgrowth. Enamel does not flow to create a rim, though it can be etched to make a void. Enamel does not grow -- it is non-vascularized, non-living, hard, dense mineral. A fistula from an abscess should have opened along the path of least resistance -- the open root of the tooth, not through the enamel. What could raise the rim of a crater? Enamel is not fluid except as it is laid down, molecule by molecule, in the crypt. I conclude that these craters are a result of an insult very early in the development of the tooth. Cementum is the last material to be laid down on the tooth, so it is likely that the crater was present when the cementum was laid down. A self-healed infection in the crypt is one possibility. If the crater were the result of an early crypt infection, the infection could have persisted and spread into bone even as the tooth developed. Without a DVM intervention, an active infection could have been fatal (starvation or sepsis) -- both teeth illustrated above appear to be recently erupted. Anyway, that's how I see it. So there we have them, rare as they seem to be, putative pathologies in mammal tooth fossils. 2 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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