What is the deal with fossil pinecones?

[Mochaccino]

Hello,

 

I'm curious what the deal is with fossil pinecones. Are very rare or in high demand? Do they take a lot of time to prep? I would think they'd preserve easily and hence be quite common, at least compared to something like permineralized fleshy fruit, but they seem relatively scarce and quite popular.

Thanks.

[siteseer]

3 hours ago, Mochaccino said:

Hello,

 

 I'm curious what the deal is with fossil pinecones. Are very rare or in high demand? Do they take a lot of time to prep? I would think they'd preserve easily and hence be quite common, at least compared to something like permineralized fleshy fruit, but they seem relatively scarce and quite popular.

Thanks.

 

If you're specifically looking for fossil pine cones as in the genus, Pinus, than they can be tough to find.  I've seen them from the Miocene of Germany though in the link below, you'll read that someone noted that they are actually Oligocene-age.  If you're looking for any kind of conifer cone, I've seen spruce cones from the Pleistocene of Washington.  They are very fragile so they're soaked in an Elmer's glue solution.  I should add I haven't many recently.  I knew a dealer who had several at one time but he passed away some time ago.

 

You can find ancient conifer cones in the Mazon Creek nodules but they're rare.

 

I've seen a specimen that might have been from a spruce from a Pleistocene site in Santa Barbara County, California but it was about half there and needed that glue prep used for the Washington cones.

 

Anyway, here's a thread from several years ago:

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/64030-fossil-pine-cones/

 

[Mochaccino]

32 minutes ago, siteseer said:

 

If you're specifically looking for fossil pine cones as in the genus, Pinus, than they can be tough to find.  I've seen them from the Miocene of Germany though in the link below, you'll read that someone noted that they are actually Oligocene-age.  If you're looking for any kind of conifer cone, I've seen spruce cones from the Pleistocene of Washington.  They are very fragile so they're soaked in an Elmer's glue solution.  I should add I haven't many recently.  I knew a dealer who had several at one time but he passed away some time ago.

 

You can find ancient conifer cones in the Mazon Creek nodules but they're rare.

 

I've seen a specimen that might have been from a spruce from a Pleistocene site in Santa Barbara County, California but it was about half there and needed that glue prep used for the Washington cones.

 

Anyway, here's a thread from several years ago:

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/64030-fossil-pine-cones/

 

Oh wow thank you, that post actually seems to be asking the exact question that I wanted to ask, except that I am asking purely out of curiosity. So these are actually not common at all, and certain ones have strict limitations on their supply chain. I guess enough people want them that demand would do the rest in driving the price up.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Mochaccino

[siteseer]

1 minute ago, Mochaccino said:

Oh wow thank you, that post actually seems to be asking the exact question that I wanted to ask, except that I am asking purely out of curiosity. So these are actually not common at all, and certain ones have strict limitations on their supply chain. I guess enough people want them that demand would do the rest in driving the price up.
 

I have to say though, it is strange that my previous post was removed for just mentioning expensiveness, when there is a post like that from a few years ago still on the forum where people are actually quoting specific prices. Perhaps the forum rule was relatively recently implemented and not retroactively applied? @JohnJ

 

It's tough for the moderators to cover everything that's been said.  There was one guy who was actually pestering another member about how much he spent on a certain fossil and where he got it from and a moderator eventually found that and edited it.  It's easy to forget to not talk about prices even generally if you talk about it elsewhere but it's a good idea to have a place where we just talk about fossils and not the money.

 

Yeah, I remember when at least two dealers at the Tucson shows would specialize in fossils from Argentina.  They can Araucaria cones as complete specimens, sliced and polished specimens (and with different interior colors), as well as matrix pieces with the cones still attached to branches.  They also had seeds and smaller cones that appeared to come from a different tree.  Once Argentina shut down fossil exports about 20 years ago, you'd see just what hadn't sold before on the market along with the occasional old collection piece. 

[Harry Pristis]

 

2 hours ago, Mochaccino said:

I'm curious what the deal is with fossil pinecones. Are very rare or in high demand? Do they take a lot of time to prep? I would think they'd preserve easily and hence be quite common, at least compared to something like permineralized fleshy fruit, but they seem relatively scarce and quite popular.

I have no sense of how common are pine cone fossils.  I can tell you this one is the only one I've found.  Many cones must be scavenged before they can be preserved as fossils.

 

This cob is replaced by fluorapatite, I've learned, not silica.

[Mochaccino]

1 hour ago, siteseer said:

 

It's tough for the moderators to cover everything that's been said.  There was one guy who was actually pestering another member about how much he spent on a certain fossil and where he got it from and a moderator eventually found that and edited it.  It's easy to forget to not talk about prices even generally if you talk about it elsewhere but it's a good idea to have a place where we just talk about fossils and not the money.

 

Yeah, I remember when at least two dealers at the Tucson shows would specialize in fossils from Argentina.  They can Araucaria cones as complete specimens, sliced and polished specimens (and with different interior colors), as well as matrix pieces with the cones still attached to branches.  They also had seeds and smaller cones that appeared to come from a different tree.  Once Argentina shut down fossil exports about 20 years ago, you'd see just what hadn't sold before on the market along with the occasional old collection piece. 

Whoops, I meant to edit that second part out and ask the mods privately instead, guess I wasn't fast enough.

 

But yes it seems for the Araucaria cones their supply is effectively cut off so that makes sense.

 

 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Mochaccino

[Mochaccino]

6 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

 

I have no sense of how common are pine cone fossils.  I can tell you this one is the only one I've found.  Many cones must be scavenged before they can be preserved as fossils.

 

This cob is replaced by fluorapatite, I've learned, not silica.

Nice specimen! And I did not expect pinecones to be such uncommon fossils. Nowadays many places you can go and see a whole bunch of fully-intact pinecones just rolling around and not scavenged, so I didn't think they would be scavenged frequently either. 
 

 

 

[JohnJ]

35 minutes ago, Mochaccino said:

But I do regularly see discussion on general cheapness/expensiveness so it confused me that my initial post was removed for doing just that. Doubly so after reading that post you linked just now.

 

When the subject of a topic is why something is expensive, we are likely to remove for reasons explained to you privately.  Six years ago, the Staff was much smaller and monitoring all topics was more difficult, including the linked topic.  Discussion of moderation on the open boards is also something we try to avoid.  The previous link is disabled.

 

Please try to approach your subject within the suggestions I offered you.

[Mochaccino]

36 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

 

When the subject of a topic is why something is expensive, we are likely to remove for reasons explained to you privately.  Six years ago, the Staff was much smaller and monitoring all topics was more difficult, including the linked topic.  Discussion of moderation on the open boards is also something we try to avoid.  The previous link is disabled.

 

Please try to approach your subject within the suggestions I offered you.

Ok, will do, my apologies. I did figure public discussion of moderation wouldn't roll, hence my admittedly belated edit of my comment. I've edited everything accordingly.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Mochaccino

[Phos_01]

11 hours ago, Mochaccino said:

but they seem relatively scarce and quite popular

Hello,

 

I like to disagree on this one, your pool of people collecting these is much much smaller, then for example Dinosaur fossils, or Shark teeth, this sets the demand and prices. This Pine is a very specific kind of fossil lover who collect plants and such. For me as an example I would not want one, same for Trilobites etc, it does nothing for me. I only collect Dinosaur material. But that does not mean its rare and special and on this forum there are allot of people who like other fossils then the most common ones 

 

 

[FranzBernhard]

1 hour ago, Phos_01 said:

But that does not mean its rare and special

I don´t know about rarity of fossil pine cones etc.

Just thinking about rudists: They are really plentiful at some sites worldwide, and yet does our preferred auction site offer only a few, esp. some from Texas. Not much else. There is simply no market for this type of fossils.

Ediacaran fossil are much rarer, I suppose, but there are a lot more in auction than rudists, for example. There is a market for Ediacaran fossils.

Franz Bernhard

Edited October 1, 2022 by FranzBernhard

[Mochaccino]

20 hours ago, Phos_01 said:

Hello,

 

I like to disagree on this one, your pool of people collecting these is much much smaller, then for example Dinosaur fossils, or Shark teeth, this sets the demand and prices. This Pine is a very specific kind of fossil lover who collect plants and such. For me as an example I would not want one, same for Trilobites etc, it does nothing for me. I only collect Dinosaur material. But that does not mean its rare and special and on this forum there are allot of people who like other fossils then the most common ones 

 

 

 

18 hours ago, FranzBernhard said:

I don´t know about rarity of fossil pine cones etc.

Just thinking about rudists: They are really plentiful at some sites worldwide, and yet does our preferred auction site offer only a few, esp. some from Texas. Not much else. There is simply no market for this type of fossils.

Ediacaran fossil are much rarer, I suppose, but there are a lot more in auction than rudists, for example. There is a market for Ediacaran fossils.

Franz Bernhard

 

Pinecones don't do much for me either, so I was curious if there was something big I was missing. I guess it's on a case-by-case basis depending on the specific type of pinecone, the rarity, supply and demand. But my impression was that it is a niche market and perhaps that's the case.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Mochaccino

[JBkansas]

I collect just about everything everything and I've seen a decent number of pine cones for sale both here, auctions and online stores. I don't know if they're that "popular," they definitely don't seem to move like T rex material. 

[siteseer]

Of course, anyone who collects plant fossils, whether sampling the long history of plants or just sampling a certain place and/or time, would want at least one cone as an example of that kind of specimen (that kind of plant part).  However, cones also appeal to the general fossil collector who might not chase every possible plant genus across time but looks for representatives of various groups, also keeping an eye open for examples of different plant parts (fruits, seeds, flowers, flower-like structures, etc.).  Someone who doesn't collect fossils as a regular hobby might want to have a fossil pine cone as a conversation piece or curio cabinet item because it looks like a modern one.  It doesn't require expert analysis to determine what it is and yet it comes from prehistory.

Edited October 4, 2022 by siteseer

[JBkansas]

At the Topeka gem and mineral show today:

[FranzBernhard]

On 10/8/2022 at 11:50 PM, JBkansas said:

At the Topeka gem and mineral show today:

Where do they come from?
Franz Bernhard

[JBkansas]

Those didn't have a location listed but I've seen identical ones listed as coming from Eocene deposits in Morocco.

 

There's some discussion that they may be horsetail seed fruit rather than conifers cones.

Edited October 25, 2022 by JBkansas