Any ideas?

[ChrisSarahRox]

One of my absolute favorites found along the same walking trail here in Grant County NM. So I am hesitant to post it however my need to know supercedes my apprehension. I know what pareidolia tells me and thus far have been content with that astute involuntary observation from my brain but I feel I need to know something factual. 

[Lone Hunter]

Gila?  Are you asking if this is a turtle carapace?  If so it's a no.

[ChrisSarahRox]

17 minutes ago, Lone Hunter said:

Gila?  Are you asking if this is a turtle carapace?  If so it's a no.

Pareidolia strikes again! Thank you Loan Hunter. The partial coloration loss and the biological symmetry is very convincing to the untrained eye it would seem. 

[Brandy Cole]

I agree it's not turtle.  This does have aspects that make me think it might not just be geologic though.  The bands and texture are interesting and neat.  I would've picked it up for that alone.  Maybe one of the experts here can tell you a little more about it.  

[ChrisSarahRox]

On 10/13/2022 at 7:34 PM, Brandy Cole said:

I agree it's not turtle.  This does have aspects that make me think it might not just be geologic though.  The bands and texture are interesting and neat.  I would've picked it up for that alone.  Maybe one of the experts here can tell you a little more about it.  

This is one I wish someone else could hold in their hand, it has very compelling features that are lost in photos alone, features that would almost demand more attention. With that being said, I accept your answer and thank you for your time. 

[Brandy Cole]

@ChrisSarahRox

It does have neat banding that almost reminds me of petrified wood in places, particularly the sections at the bottom of your first and second photos above.  Not sure if better views might help to determine if that's possible.  Right now though, I think the most likely candidate for your piece is banded chert.

 

Identifying things just takes practice and a chance to see and compare examples of real fossils.

 

Turtle shell fossils are mainly identifiable by distinct lines that mark the places where the shell segments connect together.

 

I've attached pictures below of the sun-bleached shell (back) and plastron (belly) of a dead modern turtle I found.  If you look past the dirt, you can see the distinct lines, or 'sutures,' where the shell pieces join up.

 

After turtle shell fossilizes, it still keeps those clear, organized lines as long as you find a chunk big enough to have them.  It's pretty rare to ever find an entire shell intact, because the shells often break along those weak points.

 

The fossil shell in my area is typically a deep brown color.  I've attached a picture of a fossil piece of turtle shell and a fossil piece of plastron so you can see what those would look like.  You can see the suture lines are still visible.  In dark fossils, the lines can sometimes be even easier to see in fossil than they are in bleached out modern shell.

 

[DPS Ammonite]

Take a hardness of this piece. If a metal knife blade does not scratch it, it may be a piece of banded chert. Note the folds. 
 

We would still like to know it’s age and formation. 
 

Gila refers to the river (and monster) that turns into an important water source for Arizona. Unfortunately it is mostly dry in the western half of Arizona. Too many people and too much farmland: too little water. 

[ChrisSarahRox]

16 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

Take a hardness of this piece. If a metal knife blade does not scratch it, it may be a piece of banded chert. Note the folds. 
 

We would still like to know it’s age and formation. 
 

Gila refers to the river (and monster) that turns into an important water source for Arizona. Unfortunately it is mostly dry in the western half of Arizona. Too many people and too much farmland: too little water. 

The area is around 25 to 50 million years old and is formed from two eruptions that formed the Bursam and Cliff Dwellings caldera. Gila wilderness spans around 3 million square miles of beautiful mountains very rugged terrain with lots of pine and even Aspen tree and many lakes and rivers (snow lake is my personal fav lots of Aspen trees)  It was in fact the first such area set aside as a national preserve in the United States. There are not many fossils to speak of because of how it formed however there is something known as Gila Conglomerate and is found as far west as California and as far as eastern NM and is rich with fossils. Hope this helps. 

[ChrisSarahRox]

On 10/13/2022 at 7:34 PM, Brandy Cole said:

I agree it's not turtle.  This does have aspects that make me think it might not just be geologic though.  The bands and texture are interesting and neat.  I would've picked it up for that alone.  Maybe one of the experts here can tell you a little more about it.  

I was hoping to get one more look at this one so I'm adding photos that I believe show more details. I did more cleaning and highlighted certain areas. 

[Fossildude19]

Still not a turtle.

Looks like some sort of nodule, to me.

[Brandy Cole]

@ChrisSarahRox

Did you try to scratch it with a knife as DPS Ammonite suggested?

 

The new pictures make me more convinced it is banded chert.

 

You may want to compare the texture at the base of your second photo with some of the examples here:

http://www.findingrocks.com/cgi-bin/viewupload.cgi?media_id=1821&type=Found&nocount=1

[ChrisSarahRox]

13 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

Still not a turtle.

Looks like some sort of nodule, to me.

Would you have any links you could share showing common concretions/nodules or common mistakes people like myself make daily. I have done research of my own and only find contradicting ideology of what it truly is . 

[ChrisSarahRox]

13 hours ago, Brandy Cole said:

@ChrisSarahRox

Did you try to scratch it with a knife as DPS Ammonite suggested?

 

The new pictures make me more convinced it is banded chert.

 

You may want to compare the texture at the base of your second photo with some of the examples here:

http://www.findingrocks.com/cgi-bin/viewupload.cgi?media_id=1821&type=Found&nocount=1

I did just that Brandy and the result was negative to the scratch, seemingly impervious to my several attempts to make even a small mark. As to what this means I am not sure, but eager to learn. 

[Randyw]

What he is determining is how hard it is on the mohs scale. You can eliminate a lot of minerals going by thier hardness. This means it has a hardness greater then 5.5. Chert has a hardness of 6.5-7

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Randyw

[Lone Hunter]

12 minutes ago, ChrisSarahRox said:

I have done research of my own and only find contradicting ideology of what it truly is . 

Are you trying to say you still think it's a turtle shell?  Chert is hard to scratch. 

[Brandy Cole]

@ChrisSarahRox

On 10/15/2022 at 12:37 AM, DPS Ammonite said:

If a metal knife blade does not scratch it, it may be a piece of banded chert. Note the folds. 

Chert is very hard, so it's resistant to scratching.  If you can't scratch your piece, it's more likely to be chert.

 

In terms of common mistakes that people make when fossil hunting, I would say that that (depending on where you're searching), there are about four main types of rock that frequently mimic fossil texture and shape:

Chert, limestone, sandstone, and ironstone.

 

If you Google each, you can see pretty quickly that they take on a lot of interesting shapes and textures that can trick us into thinking they're a bone or shell piece.

 

But looking up common 'faker' type rocks probably isn't the most helpful way to learn.  I've found it most helpful to look at things that ARE fossil instead.  The more real examples you see, the easier it is to see the difference.

 

Do searches to see examples of the type of fossils most commonly found in your area.  Then you'll know how to recognize a true fossil in your area when you see it and be less likely to pick up one of those pesky fakers.  Even so, even experienced hunters can be at least temporarily duped sometimes, which is why this forum is a good resource in sorting it out.

 

[Lone Hunter]

On 10/14/2022 at 9:51 PM, ChrisSarahRox said:

 With that being said I accept your answer and thank you for your time. 

 

1 hour ago, ChrisSarahRox said:

15 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

Still not a turtle.

Looks like some sort of nodule, to me.

Would you have any links you could share showing common concretions/nodules or common mistakes people like myself make daily. I have done research of my own and only find contradicting ideology of what it truly is .

Another mistake people make is not truly listening and trying to understand the opinions of experts.

[JohnJ]

@ChrisSarahRox

 

The hardness is revealing.  Can you take another series of well focused, daylight photos of the first two views in this topic?

[ChrisSarahRox]

2 hours ago, Lone Hunter said:

 

Another mistake people make is not truly listening and trying to understand the opinions of experts.

I have not rebelled against your answers nor will I, but as a senior martial arts instructor for over 20 years could not have taught my students how to walk through my dojo door let alone give them black belts if I did not answer questions. I mean no disrespect and have the utmost admiration for everyone that has been willing to help and take the time for someone who is so willing to learn but to almost say this is the answer and you may not question us. Again with respect, taking pride is great, embracing infallibility is not. You offer answers in your "fossil id" section with courtesy and free of charge, but alas it seems my questions will be unaffordable. I am sorry for my rant and will leave in peace with no animosity and will speak highly of your forum to anyone who asks but unfortunately for me, I have far too many questions.  Thank you for reading. 

[ChrisSarahRox]

1 hour ago, JohnJ said:

@ChrisSarahRox

 

The hardness is revealing.  Can you take another series of well focused, daylight photos of the first two views in this topic?

Mr. John J, I commend you sir for maintaining respect and patience and above all valuable knowledge you offered effortlessly, I only hope this forum follows the path you make. 

[Lone Hunter]

You say you have too many questions  yet I can't see a single question you asked regarding this rock. How can anyone help when you don't follow through with what's needed for a more specific ID nor have you attempted to explain what you think you see and have supporting evidence.  You say your so willing to learn how can you learn when your walking away without asking a single specific question?  

[Rockwood]

5 hours ago, ChrisSarahRox said:

I did just that Brandy and the result was negative to the scratch, seemingly impervious to my several attempts to make even a small mark. As to what this means I am not sure, but eager to learn. 

I can imagine lakes in an area of active volcanism being hostile to anything but stromatolites, and the preservation by silicate minerals would seem possible under these conditions as well. Maybe a silicified stromatolite ?

[Fossildude19]

7 hours ago, ChrisSarahRox said:

Would you have any links you could share showing common concretions/nodules or common mistakes people like myself make daily. I have done research of my own and only find contradicting ideology of what it truly is . 

 

The thing about nodules and concretions is that they can take many shapes and forms. Geology can be weird. 

 

Have a look at this website:  LINK.     HERE is another good link.

 

They tend to form in spherical and elliptical shapes, but the matrix that forms around them can take on other textures and shapes.

There is no single consistent shape a concretion can form in - they aren't like fossils in that respect.

[Plax]

The object at 10 oclock on the first pic looks like a poor brach steinkern. Silicified rock is hard if it has fossil inclusions or not. I agree of course that this isn't a turtle and may only be geological. My personal pareidolia has it looking like a crab.

[Brandy Cole]

6 hours ago, ChrisSarahRox said:

You offer answers in your "fossil id" section with courtesy and free of charge, but alas it seems my questions will be unaffordable.

I think several of us here have done our best to answer your questions and discuss possible ID's. 

Although the answer has consistently been that your piece is not turtle, I think users have done their best to give you useful information on what it could actually be.  As I've written before, it has interesting features.

 

There is nothing wrong with asking questions to learn more, and I think most active members are happy to answer.

 

Unfortunately, very frequently on ID posts, we see a person who continues to ask questions only because they are dissatisfied with the group consensus that their item is not what they hoped.  That can make me and maybe others a little sensitive, perhaps too sensitive at times, to the possibility that someone is  disregarding that consensus.  But when someone is genuinely seeking to learn more for the sake of learning, that's always welcome here.

 

If you still have unanswered questions about this specific piece, you're welcome to ask, and I'm sure people will try their best.  If you have more general ID questions, there are great posts that have been bookmarked at the top of the ID section that may answer several of those.