Is this a T. rex tooth?

[Mochaccino]

Hello,

 

Wondering if this is T.rex? Or Nano? It measures 1.25 inches and is said to be from the Hell Creek Fm. of South Dakota, no county unfortunately. The base doesn't seem 100% complete but from what is there I don't think is has the expected "pinch" of a Nano. Thoughts?

 

Thanks.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Mochaccino

[Mochaccino]

@Troodon

[Troodon]

Nanotyrannus teeth do not have oval bases so since it's from SD,  no county is needed and it's a T rex tooth.  You are correct this tooth is not complete it's missing a bit from the lower part of the crown.

[Mochaccino]

6 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Nanotyrannus teeth do not have oval bases so since it's from SD,  no county is needed and it's a T rex tooth.  You are correct this tooth is not complete it's missing a bit from the lower part of the crown.

 

Ah gotcha, thank you so much. Perhaps it was Montana that required a county due to multiple formations. And what do you think of the condition of the tooth? Seller says no reconstruction/restoration/filling, but it does appear to have a repaired crack, and some odd brownish sediment covering part of it.

 

 

[Mochaccino]

1 hour ago, Troodon said:

Nanotyrannus teeth do not have oval bases so since it's from SD,  no county is needed and it's a T rex tooth.  You are correct this tooth is not complete it's missing a bit from the lower part of the crown.

 

Just got an update from seller, says it's actually from the Lance Creek Fm. of Wyoming. Does that change the ID?

[Troodon]

No but you should find out what county in WY.  Can you now trust his information?

Very difficult to say but the tooth many have been broken and reattached, see photo.  I don't see any resto and you need to ask seller what that brownish material is and why it has not been removed.  Is it on the surface or into the enamel?

My biggest issue with this tooth is that it's missing and uncertain amount of it's base, could extend below the lowest portion that is present.

 

 

 

[jikohr]

Hi,

I sold that tooth to someone on the 13th of October on "that bidding site", was that you?

It is from Harding County South Dakota Hell Creek. I have no idea where anyone is getting Lance Creek from.

I got it from the person who found it and very carefully followed the cracks around to find they don't connect so I'm fairly certain no breaks, (on the side with the sediment the cracks didn't connect and the sediment was undisturbed, or at least that's how I came to that conclusion).

I'd be happy to provide or find out any other information if you want.

[Troodon]

Thats good on that crack.

If you decide to purchase it I would stabilize it to insure it does not grow and split the tooth

[Mochaccino]

45 minutes ago, jikohr said:

Hi,

I sold that tooth to someone on the 13th of October on "that bidding site", was that you?

It is from Harding County South Dakota Hell Creek. I have no idea where anyone is getting Lance Creek from.

I got it from the person who found it and very carefully followed the cracks around to find they don't connect so I'm fairly certain no breaks, (on the side with the sediment the cracks didn't connect and the sediment was undisturbed, or at least that's how I came to that conclusion).

I'd be happy to provide or find out any other information if you want.

 

33 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Thats good on that crack.

If you decide to purchase it I would stabilize it to insure it does not grow and split the tooth

Hmm that's odd, that wasn't me but the seller sent me this photo of a "certificate of authenticity" regarding the tooth, which is where he gets the Lance Creek Fm. Wyoming from. @jikohr do you think the seller mixed it up and this COA is actually unrelated to this tooth?

 

[Troodon]

Proves how worthless COA's can be.  Let's see,  which one should I pull out for this tooth?

[Top Trilo]

A Certificate of Authenticity for a fossil means nothing, it does not guarantee province, its possible that the seller attaches these to every theropod tooth they get. Also it has several errors, first of all it should be Tyrannosaurus rex, and it did not live 20 million years. Going extinct at the end of the Cretaceous 66 million years ago and then also the outdated tyrant lizard image in the bottom right. It is used just to try and convince buyers that what they're selling is authentic, even though they could easily put the same certificate on a heavily restored tooth.

[Mochaccino]

5 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Proves how worthless COA's can be.  Let's see,  which one should I pull out for this tooth?

 

4 minutes ago, Top Trilo said:

A Certificate of Authenticity for a fossil means nothing, it does not guarantee province, its possible that the seller attaches these to every theropod tooth they get. Also it has several errors, first of all it should be Tyrannosaurus rex, and it did not live 20 million years. Going extinct at the end of the Cretaceous 66 million years ago and then also the outdated tyrant lizard image in the bottom right. It is used just to try and convince buyers that what they're selling is authentic, even though they could easily put the same certificate on a heavily restored tooth.

I agree and I couldn't care less that it's a COA, I'm only concerned whether the seller has the correct label and provenance for the tooth. Seller initially told me Hell Creek South Dakota then changed to Lance Creek Wyoming, but if it's the same one @jikohr sold it should still be the former. Confusing.

[jikohr]

10 hours ago, Mochaccino said:

 

Hmm that's odd, that wasn't me but the seller sent me this photo of a "certificate of authenticity" regarding the tooth, which is where he gets the Lance Creek Fm. Wyoming from. @jikohr do you think the seller mixed it up and this COA is actually unrelated to this tooth?

 

Nope, not my work. Looks like whoever bought it from me sold it to you.

Also yeah, COAs are the fossil dealers placebo. I tried so hard to not use them when I first started a few years ago, but then relented when I had numerous people literally BEG me for them. It didn't matter that I explained that "it's not like art, there is no governing body (though I guess the forum kinda comes close)".

I didn't matter that I already included an info sheet detailing species, location, age etc. nope it needs to have "Certificate of Authenticity" in big fancy letters on it to mean anything.

[Mochaccino]

10 minutes ago, jikohr said:

Nope, not my work. Looks like whoever bought it from me sold it to you.

Also yeah, COAs are the fossil dealers placebo. I tried so hard to not use them when I first started a few years ago, but then relented when I had numerous people literally BEG me for them. It didn't matter that I explained that "it's not like art, there is no governing body (though I guess the forum kinda comes close)".

I didn't matter that I already included an info sheet detailing species, location, age etc. nope it needs to have "Certificate of Authenticity" in big fancy letters on it to mean anything.

 

I see, so this is indeed Hell Creek South Dakota and seems this COA is unrelated to the tooth? Since he seems to be using the exact photos you used I am now suspicious whether he has the tooth at all. I'll ask him if he can take more photos.

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by Mochaccino

[jikohr]

Just now, Mochaccino said:

 

I see, so this is indeed Hell Creek South Dakota and seems this COA is unrelated to the tooth. Thanks.

 

Not a problem! Here's the correct info.

 

Tyrannosaurus rex Tooth

Late Cretaceous 68-66 Million Years

Hell Creek Formation

Harding County, South Dakota, USA

 

Honestly it's entirely possible that he got it mixed up with a similar tooth. I'm not saying that as an excuse, it's not for any dealer including me. But it does happen sometimes especially this time of year when things get super busy.

[JohnJ]

3 hours ago, jikohr said:

Nope, not my work. Looks like whoever bought it from me sold it to you.

Also yeah, COAs are the fossil dealers placebo. I tried so hard to not use them when I first started a few years ago, but then relented when I had numerous people literally BEG me for them. It didn't matter that I explained that "it's not like art, there is no governing body (though I guess the forum kinda comes close)".

I didn't matter that I already included an info sheet detailing species, location, age etc. nope it needs to have "Certificate of Authenticity" in big fancy letters on it to mean anything.

 

Regardless of the social pressure, one can still abstain from a worthless, ambiguous business practice.  Maybe a "certificate of information" is a better option.

[jpc]

my Wyoming perspective says that I am suspicious of facts from anyone using the term "Lance Creek Fm."  It sis called the "Lance Fm".  No creek involved even though it is named after the town of Lance Creek, or the actual creek that flows through the area.  Lance Formation.    

[jikohr]

2 hours ago, JohnJ said:

 

Regardless of the social pressure, one can still abstain from a worthless, ambiguous business practice.  Maybe a "certificate of information" is a better option.

Believe me, I would like to. But you have no idea how ingrained it is that a COA has to be included. I still get messages constantly making sure that it's included even though I say I do in the listings. People are as worried about that being included as the fossil they just bought!

I try to tell people that they're basically just information sheets. Every time the person just vanishes. People jut don't want to hear it. Even then I still volunteer that info whenever people ask for more details on COAs, mine or just in general. 

 

That being said, I get where you're coming from and do want to try something like that. I'll try to figure something out instead of a COA like that Certificate of Information. Would I be able to post possible ideas for formats on the forum somewhere for scrutiny?

Edited October 28, 2022 by jikohr

[JohnJ]

49 minutes ago, jikohr said:

Would I be able to post possible ideas for formats on the forum somewhere for scrutiny?

No.

 

Ethics are personal.  How you conduct business is up to you.  This sidebar commentary regarding your business has already probably exceeded our limits of discussing sellers on TFF.  Let's leave it where it is.  

[Troodon]

From what I can see a good number of online dino dealers and most auction sellers include a COA, good or bad its just part of the offering and business.  I think its worthless but collectors who are not experienced look at it as some sort of protection and require it.   I think they should pay more attention to the provenance and ID but thats why they are inexperienced and need to find this forum to become educated. 

As a comparison I'm not aware of any dealers offering COA's at the big fossil shows like Tucson and Denver..

[Mochaccino]

10 minutes ago, Troodon said:

From what I can see a good number of online dino dealers and most auction sellers include a COA, good or bad its just part of the offering and business.  I think its worthless but collectors who are not experienced look at it as some sort of protection and require it.   I think they should pay more attention to the provenance and ID but thats why they are inexperienced and need to find this forum to become educated. 

Has a comparison I'm not aware of any dealers offering COA's at the big fossil shows like Tucson and Denver..

 

The way I see it, a COA could be more significant as a signed physical documentation of the seller's claim to authenticity, rather than an indication of the fossil's authenticity itself. What I mean by that is, in the event that the fossil turns out to be not what it seems, there is some physical proof to hold the seller accountable. I have no idea if that actually has legal weight, but if I wanted to file a credit card dispute for instance I feel it can't hurt to have. But in most cases it's probably unnecessary and just the seller's product listing and any communications via email, etc. are sufficient, along with consumer protection provided by trustworthy platforms.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Mochaccino

[Troodon]

4 minutes ago, Mochaccino said:

 

The way I see it, a COA could be more significant as a signed physical documentation of the seller's claim to authenticity, rather than an indication of the fossil's authenticity itself. What I mean by that is, in the event that the fossil turns out to be not what it seems, there is some physical proof to hold the seller accountable. I have no idea if that actually has legal weight, but if I wanted to file a credit card dispute for instance I feel it can't hurt to have.

 

Like I said the focus is all wrong, should be on the provenance and ID.   A screenshot of the final auction with price and photo is a much better legal document than a paper with just words that cannot be tied to your specimen

 

[Mochaccino]

1 hour ago, Troodon said:

 

Like I said the focus is all wrong, should be on the provenance and ID.   A screenshot of the final auction with price and photo is a much better legal document than a paper with just words that cannot be tied to your specimen

 

 

Yes indeed, and I don't bother with COAs when buying. If provided, I just treat it as a neat little physical label card with provenance and ID info from the seller. The T. rex tooth I made this post about and mis-assigned COA is a great example of "a paper with just words that cannot be tied to your specimen".

 

 

 

 

 

[jikohr]

1 hour ago, Mochaccino said:

 

Yes indeed, and I generally don't bother with COAs when buying. If provided, I just treat it as a neat little physical label card with provenance and ID info from the seller. The T. rex tooth I made this post about and mis-assigned COA is a great example of "a paper with just words that cannot be tied to your specimen".

 

 

 

The photos he used are actually the ones that I took when I listed it and sold it to him. That's my hand in the picture. The only other picture I have of that one is this showing scale.

[Meatasaurus93]

Anyone with a computer and printer can make a COA, so they're worth as much as the paper they're printed on. The best "COA" is to learn as much as you can about the fossil(s) that interest you and to get opinions from people who are informed on the subjec before committing to a purchase. I have passed up multiple fossils in the past that may have been legit, but I didn't know enough about them to feel confident in putting money towards them.