Are Fossils A Much Bigger Demand In America Than In England?

[FF7_Yuffie]

Just curious since I've been browsing a few sites, looking for some new Dino teeth to buy for my collection. I've noticed though that America sites all seem to be a heck of a lot more expensive than the English ones.

Like Rebbachisaurus teeth for example, they all seem to be $100 dollars plus on America sites but an English ebay seller regularly sells them for under £10 and one English fossil site I found has quite a few for sale for around £15.

Just wondering if fossil collecting is much more popular over in the States or if there's another reason for the huge difference in prices

[JimB88]

fossils have been getting more and more expensive here since people realized there was money to be made on them. Do to events like the selling of Sue the t-rex for over 1 million, fossil prices have been climbing. Hopefully they will come back down.

[Auspex]

The disparity with the Rebbachisaurus material in particular, and other species in general, may be dependent on how many hands they pass through before coming to market. Our home-grown dino material might be less expensive here.

[siteseer]

The disparity with the Rebbachisaurus material in particular, and other species in general, may be dependent on how many hands they pass through before coming to market. Our home-grown dino material might be less expensive here.

I agree. At the European shows these teeth have been cheaper partly because the Moroocan dealers don't have to travel as far. However, if you go to a major American fossil show like the ones in Tucson, Arizona every February, you will see these teeth in the $25-40 range (one guy sells one for $25 and that buyer resells it for $40 to an online seller who then puts it out for $100. Part of it is due to the fact that American sauropod teeth are less-often seen for sale, and when they are, they are expensive (a decent one might start at a few hundred dollars). A rooted Rebbachiosaurus for $100 suddenly looks like a bargain.

[cousin it]

I will probably take a beating on this, but since the door was opened...

If the sale and trade of fossils were made illegal, it would supplant the knowledge of us all, and I think that is what is all about. You see(granted, there are exceptions), there is a cadre of folks out there whose only motivation is profit! And, those unscrupulous dealers demean the science that most of us have spent the better part of our lives studying. I think that if you want to make a living in paleontology, you should publish, or get the hell out of the way. There are amateurs that find their way into the journals(http://palaeo-electronica.org/index.html), but there are many more ignorant fools whose only introduction to science was a couple of credits to fulfill a college requirement, or worse yet, a high school biology class. Holy Hyakutake! And, some of those dealers are creationists!

Just my 2 cents

Edited April 23, 2010 by cousin it

[RJB]

People put far too much importance in fossils.

RB

[32fordboy]

shhh. Inexpensive fossils on the other side of the pond is supposed to be a secret

Regarding what Cousin It said:

A few days ago I was thinking about how screwed up the fossil world might be because of laws, both internally and on an international scale. I was wondering if there could be a system in place that would allow free trade of fossils around the world.

Dealers could be required to go through "quick and inexpensive" training. The training would have to do with identifying special specimens-specimens that should be turned over for scientific study.

Also, let's say a dealer would like to sell fossils from China. Maybe that dealer would be required to get a quick identification from a museum before exporting the fossils-hey, at least they wouldn't be stuck in China.

Another thing I have a problem with is the amount of specimens museums keep hidden. Those museums should be required to study a specimen within a certain timeframe, or give it up to a different museum for study. A specimen stuffed away in a box is about as good as an important specimen hidden in somebody's collection.

Those are all good ideas-it would free up fossil trade AND increase the educational value of them all. People would make money and the number of fakes might decrease. Sure it's not a perfect system, but it could be refined by people who know what they are doing (respectable and educated dealers). Sure there would still be important specimens hidden away, but not as many. Then I realized: I'm wasting my time thinking about it this would be too expensive, people would be dodging those new rules, and ignorant/arrogant lawmakers would screw things up.

Nick

Edited April 23, 2010 by 32fordboy

[Auspex]

...there is a cadre of folks out there whose only motivation is profit! And, those unscrupulous dealers demean the science...

I don't think it follows that being motivated by profit means one is unscrupulous.

[32fordboy]

Agreed. It means you love fossils, but still need to put food on the table

[Kentuckiana Mike]

Another thing I have a problem with is the amount of specimens museums keep hidden. Those museums should be required to study a specimen within a certain timeframe, or give it up to a different museum for study. A specimen stuffed away in a box is about as good as an important specimen hidden in somebody's collection.

I work with a museum collection and it is frustrating that more specimens cannot be shown to the public. A number of issues come into play. One is space and secure displays to show the specimens. Another is lack of general public interest in fossils and minerals with maybe the exception of dinosaurs and precious jewels/metals.

Museums and universities play a role in keeping intact large collections for future research (maybe 100s of years from now).

In the future, a growing number of collections will be put on-line for the world to see. I believe this is the best solution for large mineral and fossil collection to be shown to the public. My experience has been that most curators and professors will show the collection if you have a valid research interest.

[John]

I don't think it follows that being motivated by profit means one is unscrupulous.

Agreed. I think it is naive to draw such childishly black and white assumptions.

[John]

My experience has been that most curators and professors will show the collection if you have a valid research interest.

I'm curious exactly what constitutes a "valid" research interest?

[FF7_Yuffie]

Informative replies! Thanks guys and gals!

One thing I have noticed that is kinda related to the topic is that on American websites there is a MUCH larger choice of different teeth and fossils available than there is here in England.

I'm guessing that's for pretty much the same reason Moroccan fossils are fairly cheap over here? With America been closer to Canada, South America and of course, the American dig sites so that's why there's a larger variety?

[32fordboy]

I'd like to knock this topic back on track here for a minute:

I have been watching several European distributors for quite a while now (probably two years), and I have noticed that prices seem to be going up over there, at least for mammalian fossils.

Nick

P.S. Woops, looks like you replied while I was typing this. Sorry.

Edited April 23, 2010 by 32fordboy

[32fordboy]

That's pretty much it. There's a lot more searchable area over here than there is over there. I personally think European fossils tend to have better preservation (not counting North Sea fossils). The best preserved fossils in my collection are either European or from the east coast of the US.

[fossildan]

With reference to the start of thread topic,

I would think that it is simply suply and demand.

How many people in the uk interested in that material versus how many people in the U.S. interested in that same material whatever it may be it will always fetch more where it is in more demand,

Surely this is a more logical explination

Dan

[John]

It could even be cultural. Americans would have a heart attack if gasoline (petrol) cost the same here as it does in the UK, but I've noticed that here in the US we are more than willing to pay quite a bit more to own a car in the first place. I wonder if similar things are going on in regards to fossils?

I do know that, as others have mentioned, it can definitely depend on where you are in the supply chain. Even when Moroccans come to Tucson, they charge more for fossils than they would if you bought them in Morocco. When I've gone to shows in Japan, fossils universally cost more than I could get the same thing for here. Even local Japanese fossils are very expensive compared to similar things in America when they are for sale in Tokyo.

[Terry Dactyll]

The value of a fossil is driven by what people will actually pay for it.... you may simply have more collectors in the States competing for the same material for their collections, hence the price edges up.....I know in the UK Fossiling is a 'small world'.... certainly collecting what I collect anyway....

Edited April 24, 2010 by Terry Dactyll

[Wakaritai]

The value of a fossil is driven by what people will actually pay for it.... you may simply have more collectors in the States competing for the same material for their collections, hence the price edges up.....I know in the UK Fossiling is a 'small world'.... certainly collecting what I collect anyway....

I think you hit the mark in your first statement. I've noticed some interesting things going on in the fossil market on the web. There are people who sell at traditional prices, a few to several dollars for this and that, and then there are those with the same things selling them for hundreds. Those who sell the fossils for hundreds first I think are in luck. The people who find them who have money to burn, and want good quality fossils will buy them. Why the expensive ones? Because they are expensive. Price implies quality, and if one knows nothing else, that is what they assume. After a while a few things can happen. What typically happens is that those who spend carelessly for overpriced fossils will get their fill, and then only people who will buy for less are left. At the same time, people who sell for less raise their prices because they realize they can make more money. They won't meet in the exact middle, but price ranges tend to narrow drastically.

The issue with fossils is their rarity, whether true or assumed. With low numbers being sold, the process takes much longer. If public sales are below a certain point, those who sell for high prices will be outnumbered buy buyers who don't care about price. So long as that remains true, it is a seller's market. Sellers tend to make enough selling only at high prices that they don't have to lower their prices-- they just wait. If, despite high quantity of the good, the items are only sold to those willing to pay high prices, the value stays up. Interest in fossils is increasing as of late I believe, which exacerbates the issue. This sucks for the casual collector, but ohh, well. It could take years to stabilize. There are many other factors that influence price as well, but again, I've rambled long enough. Take diamonds for example. There are many examples of far more beautiful and rare gems, but through market manipulation, the common and boring diamond is only sold by a select few companies at extremely inflated prices. If you take market manipulation out of the equation, they would sell for a very small fraction of what they currently sell for.

and 32fordboy... you said you would like free trade for fossils... but 1. We have free trade already. and 2. You made arguments for trade restrictions. I get what you're saying though, I just found it ironic

[32fordboy]

I meant freeing up fossil trade for the countries that currently have export bans, such as China, because right now, from a global standpoint, there are far too many restrictions on fossil trade. There are way too many countries that have made it illegal to export-that's not free trade. I'm not talking about adding new regulations, just changing the existing ones to benefit everybody on a global scale. It'll never happen anyway

Hopefully that helps to clarify

Nick

[promotheus]

It seems so for some reason, tho if your looking for general dinosaurteeth i'd say visit www.stoneshop.se, a good site and its translateable to english on the upper right corner. Got a 75 mm long carcharodontosaur-tooth for quite a low price. The quality of the tooth wasnt the best, but will get it better prepped when I find a dealer pretty close to home.

Tho' not dinosaurs I really recommend the mosasaurtooth-collection, well worth it!

John

[Phoenixflood]

There are lots of factors to consider when asking these questions. The internet has opened up many fossil locations into the priviate sector. It is supply and demand, but not only that people are wanting the same types of material but from different parts of the globe to add to there collection. The same tooth may be valued differently if it comes from another location.

Either way, a sauropod tooth for 10 pound sounds pretty sweet

[Wakaritai]

ok, I see now

Well, you're certainly right about it never happening, regardless of any benefits. The "China" that we know today (aka the PRC, the last 60 years or so) is very much a communist state. So yeah, a reduction in restrictions for what they consider state property is a long shot, to say the least. Plus, for reasons that I'll spare you the bore of reading, there is a lot of animosity among PRC citizens towards the west with regard to fossils and artifacts, which makes the proposition even less likely.