Tooth

[Dustink-]

Thank you I appreciate everyone’s contribution and effort in trying to identify this tooth , it’s a difficult one for sure , , and while it very well could be (I have no clue)

 

but it is clear the serrations are  different, it doesn’t matter that someone can scale the image down  to cover  the other and call it a match , it’s the size of the serrations and how they are arranged  , from my understanding, that makes it hard to identify, the tooth in black  and white , has large ones at the bottom and continuously gets smaller going towards the tip …. Mine however has large and small mixed up in random order (it’s not uniform) 

[Lone Hunter]

I've been following this and think it's very interesting, my knowledge on teeth is limited but I am trying to learn. One thing I have learned from several places   is that teeth with the more complex serrations are plant eaters but not sure if this applies here,  just learning. To my untrained eye the edestus tooth looks like it has some irregularities whereas the tooth in question looks like a purposeful pattern that is different.  

[Dustink-]

Lone hunter - thank you for your input the serrations in mine are pretty unique so I don’t think it’s an accident or simple deformity , I admittedly don’t know much about fossils , but in my opinion the serrations are so irregular and random that I don’t think it matches edestus at all , I could be wrong but it just doesn’t seem to match any example of edestus that I can find 

[Brandy Cole]

17 hours ago, Dustink- said:

They are paleontologist… and a shark expert… I’m sure they looked at minor also before telling me it’s not edestus 

 

I'm not sure why it would hurt to ask to be sure, as long as it's done respectfully.  Paleontologists are often busy and may not consider all possible options before giving an initial opinion.  Paleontology is also a tremendously broad and deep field, and the comparisons that people are able to make vary greatly depending on their respective fields of expertise. 

 

I assume the paleontologists you spoke with referred you to the shark expert because they recognized they may have limits in the shark field.

 

If I had an item that drew this level of discussion, I'd probably try sending a short email to the shark expert saying, "I appreciate your time looking at my piece.  Some have compared it to the attached example and suggested it could be edestus minor.  What do you think?"

 

Then you could get an idea on what his thoughts are on why this ID in particular would or wouldn't be a good match.

[jpc]

I am at the SVP conference in Toronto and Wayne is too.  I leave tomorrow but if i see him i will show him this.

[JohnJ]

1 minute ago, jpc said:

I am at the SVP conference in Toronto and Wayne is too.  I leave tomorrow but if i see him i will show him this.

Thanks, JP!

[jpc]

No luck.  I left Toronto this morning.  No sighting of Wayne.

[Carl]

On 11/4/2022 at 5:25 PM, JohnJ said:

 

  I've worked with both, too.  They're just people that may not have looked that far.  If they did, great.  But any other line of reasoning should have examples that exhibit similar characteristics.  It's a fascinating tooth fragment that should be identifiable.

 

Maybe @Carl can run it by Dr. Maisey again.  I've also reached out to Wayne Itano via Researchgate.  In the absence of a similar looking possibility, it might be worth running it back by the your previous contacts.  Regardless, it's a handsome tooth.

Below is all of what Maisey said. I am currently waiting on Sterling Nesbitt's input. He has been able to ID virtually everything I've ever seen put to him from the Permo-Triassic.

 

"If it’s Paleozoic, it could be a chondrichthyan tooth, although serrated chondrichthyan teeth are highly unusual in the Paleozoic (and in the Mesozoic, for that matter). Could be Carcharopsis. Or Edestus. Or a petalodont (less likely). But all these are more common (if that’s the right word ) in the Mississippian. 

If it isn’t Paleozoic there are still a couple of Mesozoic sharks (hybodonts) with serrated teeth. Problem is they don’t (I think) occur in N America. 

I agree with you about it not being a petalodont. But Carcharopsis and Edestus are still plausible."

 

[wayne_colorado]

I think it is within the range of variation of Edestodus minor (Middle Pennsylvanian). The serrations on Edestodus minor teeth vary quite a bit, but there are some that look like the ones on this tooth. Also, the curvature of Edestodus minor teeth vary. This one is straighter than most. If this tooth is symmetric about a plane cutting through the serrated edges, then it is definitely not Carcharopsis (Late Mississippian). By the way, I am using the genus name `Edestodus' because, in my opinion, Edestus should be split into the 3 genera, Lestrodus, Edestodus, and Edestus. Obruchev divided Edestus into 4 genera, (originally as subgenera), but I think his Protopirata is synonymous with Edestus. I'm thinking of writing a short note on this. Compare to these photos of teeth from the Desmoinesian (Middle Pennsylvanian) of  San Saba County, Texas.

I don't follow the Fossil Forum, but someone posted a note in ResearchGate.

Wayne Itano, wayne.itano (at) aya.yale.edu

[JohnJ]

9 minutes ago, wayne_colorado said:

I don't follow the Fossil Forum, but someone posted a note in ResearchGate.

 

Thanks for your expertise, Wayne!  @wayne_colorado

[Carl]

On 11/7/2022 at 6:56 PM, wayne_colorado said:

I think it is within the range of variation of Edestodus minor (Middle Pennsylvanian). The serrations on Edestodus minor teeth vary quite a bit, but there are some that look like the ones on this tooth. Also, the curvature of Edestodus minor teeth vary. This one is straighter than most. If this tooth is symmetric about a plane cutting through the serrated edges, then it is definitely not Carcharopsis (Late Mississippian). By the way, I am using the genus name `Edestodus' because, in my opinion, Edestus should be split into the 3 genera, Lestrodus, Edestodus, and Edestus. Obruchev divided Edestus into 4 genera, (originally as subgenera), but I think his Protopirata is synonymous with Edestus. I'm thinking of writing a short note on this. Compare to these photos of teeth from the Desmoinesian (Middle Pennsylvanian) of  San Saba County, Texas.

I don't follow the Fossil Forum, but someone posted a note in ResearchGate.

Wayne Itano, wayne.itano (at) aya.yale.edu

Wow... Some of those I would mistake for Hemipristis! Such variability. Thanks for this!