ID of articulated fish spine vertebra? SD

[Slow Walker]

Found this articulated in SD Pierre shale and wondering what fish species it might be? Most isn't clean but i did rough clean on one. Thanks

[Tidgy's Dad]

Pretty sizeable fish. 

Great find. 

Are those spines that came off the vertebrae? (the long thin things between the first two rows of vetebrae in the first picture) 

If so this might point to Enchodus which I believe occurs in the Pierre Shale and had long spines running out from the vertebrae. 

And it could get big. 

 

But I'm sure the folk who collect in the Pierre Shale might know of others. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Tidgy's Dad

[jpc]

I can't ID late K big fish verts for sure, but Xiphactinus is also a possibility.   These look like they come from the Sharon Springs Member based on the preservation. 

[hemipristis]

There are several species that are commonly found in that strata: Enchodus sp., Cimolichthys sp., Xiphactinus audax, and Gillicus sp.

 

Doesnt look like Xiphactinus, but the other three are possibilities. 

[Slow Walker]

9 hours ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

Pretty sizeable fish. 

Great find. 

Are those spines that came off the vertebrae? (the long thin things between the first two rows of vetebrae in the first picture) 

If so this might point to Enchodus which I believe occurs in the Pierre Shale and had long spines running out from the vertebrae. 

And it could get big. 

 

But I'm sure the folk who collect in the Pierre Shale might know of others. 

It did seem the long spines were coming from them but couldn't tell if it was attached since there was so much debris and they were fragile. 

[Slow Walker]

9 hours ago, jpc said:

I can't ID late K big fish verts for sure, but Xiphactinus is also a possibility.   These look like they come from the Sharon Springs Member based on the preservation. 

What reference do you use to tell which members are which? I've read several pages on local members but few have nice photos. Thanks

[Slow Walker]

5 hours ago, hemipristis said:

There are several species that are commonly found in that strata: Enchodus sp., Cimolichthys sp., Xiphactinus audax, and Gillicus sp.

 

Doesnt look like Xiphactinus, but the other three are possibilities. 

Enchodus and Cimolichthys seem to have more holes in their vertebra than what im seeing in mine with comparing online. How are you deciding on it? 

[jpc]

6 hours ago, Slow Walker said:

What reference do you use to tell which members are which? I've read several pages on local members but few have nice photos. Thanks

There seems to be a lot of gypsum on the close up pictures of the verts.  That is typical of the Sharon springs in eastern WY and western SD.  If you are in central SD, then all bets are off as I don't know that area very well.  Also, the Sharon Springs is the most vertebrate rich unit in the Pierre Shale.  Not to say that vertebrates cannot be found in other members.  On the other hand, if find bones in concretions out there they tend to not have any gypsum on them. 

[hemipristis]

8 hours ago, Slow Walker said:

Enchodus and Cimolichthys seem to have more holes in their vertebra than what im seeing in mine with comparing online. How are you deciding on it? 

Honestly, I didn’t look that close. I was just listing the more common species present

[Slow Walker]

21 hours ago, jpc said:

There seems to be a lot of gypsum on the close up pictures of the verts.  That is typical of the Sharon springs in eastern WY and western SD.  If you are in central SD, then all bets are off as I don't know that area very well.  Also, the Sharon Springs is the most vertebrate rich unit in the Pierre Shale.  Not to say that vertebrates cannot be found in other members.  On the other hand, if find bones in concretions out there they tend to not have any gypsum on them. 

Cool, where do you find information on which member is which and what can be found in each? Thanks

[Slow Walker]

17 hours ago, hemipristis said:

Honestly, I didn’t look that close. I was just listing the more common species present

Oh, how do you find out the more common species? I couldn't find that online. 

[jpc]

2 hours ago, Slow Walker said:

Oh, how do you find out the more common species? I couldn't find that online. 

 I don't think there is an online or paper list of common species.  Experience and research.  I have been poking around out there for 20 years. (No bird fossils are common out there). 

 

As for members, I use the classic paper by Gill and Cobban and the WY geology map, and more detailed geology maps (some available online, some from a good geology library which may be available at the School of Mines in Rapid City) and a lot of walking about.   

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=OcoKAQAAMAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=Redbird+ammonites&ots=zX3ShBonk4&sig=TJcD0yWUmFg2xv5A3zCADumlx_Q#v=onepage&q=Redbird ammonites&f=false

The link is to the much redacted Google Books version... useless except for the title.  The full pdf is available from the USGS website, or somewhere else.  Look it up on Google Scholar.

 

I will say that the difference between members is not easy to learn.  Based on some very technical stuff and the baculites and ammonites within.  Even baculite a scaphitid species are difficult to ID (for me anyway).  I only know the Sharon Springs.  It is quite distinctive, in that it weathers into small flat pieces of shale that actually blow about in the Wyoming wind.  Most Pierre Shale members are more muddy-ish where they are fully exposed....meaning plant-free.    

 

Here is a shot of a fish skull found in the Sharon Springs Member.  Note, not so much the fossil, but little flat plates of shale all around it.  THAT is typical Sharon Springs.  Seen esp at 12 to 3 o'clock from the fossil. 

[Slow Walker]

4 hours ago, jpc said:

 I don't think there is an online or paper list of common species.  Experience and research.  I have been poking around out there for 20 years. (No bird fossils are common out there). 

 

As for members, I use the classic paper by Gill and Cobban and the WY geology map, and more detailed geology maps (some available online, some from a good geology library which may be available at the School of Mines in Rapid City) and a lot of walking about.   

https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=OcoKAQAAMAAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA1&dq=Redbird+ammonites&ots=zX3ShBonk4&sig=TJcD0yWUmFg2xv5A3zCADumlx_Q#v=onepage&q=Redbird ammonites&f=false

The link is to the much redacted Google Books version... useless except for the title.  The full pdf is available from the USGS website, or somewhere else.  Look it up on Google Scholar.

 

I will say that the difference between members is not easy to learn.  Based on some very technical stuff and the baculites and ammonites within.  Even baculite a scaphitid species are difficult to ID (for me anyway).  I only know the Sharon Springs.  It is quite distinctive, in that it weathers into small flat pieces of shale that actually blow about in the Wyoming wind.  Most Pierre Shale members are more muddy-ish where they are fully exposed....meaning plant-free.    

 

Here is a shot of a fish skull found in the Sharon Springs Member.  Note, not so much the fossil, but little flat plates of shale all around it.  THAT is typical Sharon Springs.  Seen esp at 12 to 3 o'clock from the fossil. 

Wow there's tons of info in that paper. I looked at the images but didn't recognize any. 

I was hoping the was more visual differences in members like color or bentonite layers. 

[jpc]

5 hours ago, Slow Walker said:

Wow there's tons of info in that paper. I looked at the images but didn't recognize any. 

I was hoping the was more visual differences in members like color or bentonite layers. 

There is the Ardmore bentonite layer in (or adjacent to... I'd have to look it up) the Sharon Springs, but I have never been able to to say... "Yup That is it right there at the end of my rock pick".  And ,otherwise, nope, no real color differences.  Not easy, this stuff.  

[hemipristis]

15 hours ago, Slow Walker said:

Oh, how do you find out the more common species? I couldn't find that online. 

Pretty much the same as @jpc:  general searching around, reading what pubs that find, and—not exactly scientific—seeing what crops up in fossil auctions