Upper Otter M1 versus upper Canid M2?

[Meganeura]

So I was recently looking at Canid detention cause of the dire wolf tooth I found this past weekend - and stumbled across pictures of upper Dire Wolf M2s, and thought they looked familiar.

 

A while ago, back in August, I found this tooth that I sent to Hulbert for an ID. He said it was an Otter M1. However, while it looks quite similar to an Otter M1, it also seems to match a Dire Wolf M2, possibly even more closely.

 

So first here’s the tooth - it’s 14.2mm long:

 

The size fits both Enhydritherium terraenovae (Which is the Otter) M1s:

 

And Canis dirus M2s:

 

It looks as though the otter molar has a wider section of tooth where the protocone sits (lingual side) compared to the Dire Wolf M2, which has a longer labial side. My tooth seems to have a longer labial side, but just barely, but I’m also really not 100% sure. Anyone have any ideas, or a way to tell?

 

@Harry Pristis @Shellseeker @digit

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Meganeura

[Meganeura]

So I measured with calipers - total tooth length: 14.55mm. Lingual side width: 7.53mm.

Labial side width: 9.01mm.

 

So since the labial side is 1.5mm longer than the lingual - points to it being canid - and size points to it being Dire Wolf.

 

@minnbuckeye does a length of 14.55m fit dire wolf M2 size? From FLMNH pictures it does, but I want to make sure.

[minnbuckeye]

Unfortunately, I am no expert. I just know when I found a dire wolf molar, SIZE was very important to rule out other possibilities.

[Meganeura]

Just now, minnbuckeye said:

Unfortunately, I am no expert. I just know when I found a dire wolf molar, SIZE was very important to rule out other possibilities.

Well my comparisons to Coyote (M2 length <1cm), Wolf (M2 length also <1cm), and domestic dogs (Once again, M2 length <1cm) have pointed to a larger canid. So I mean, I suppose it could also be Epicyon haydeni as the size still fits, as does the county it was found in. 

[Meganeura]

Epicyon haydeni picture from the FLMNH website, I moved the scale bar (in cm) - puts the M2 tooth at approximately 14-15mm. (I really wish they had better quality pics...)


Same thing with Canis dirus - M2 at about 12-13mm.


I suppose size points to E. haydeni here. E. haydeni lived in Clarendonian to early Hemphilian, and I found the Cormohipparion ingenuum tooth (Early Clarendonian to Early Hemphilian) like 300ft away from where I found this M2. So I suppose it's not unreasonable to think it's E. haydeni, though C. dirus is probably much more likely. 

If anyone wants to chime in with corrections, please do - I'm going off of google research pretty much here!
 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Meganeura

[Shellseeker]

Daniel,  you are asking Florida amateur fossil hunters to comment on similar looking teeth from at least one mammal in the Miocene, all of which are about 14-15 mm.

While you have Richard Hulbert's initial response and no one, even scientists, are infallible.  I'd suggest that you need to have a longer conversation with him highlighting your points and evaluating his responses. He is retired , not dead.  Send him an email

Having never seen or held any of these teeth,  I am not qualified to comment.  Jack

[Meganeura]

2 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Daniel,  you are asking Florida amateur fossil hunters to comment on similar looking teeth from at least one mammal in the Miocene, all of which are about 14-15 mm.

While you have Richard Hulbert's initial response and no one, even scientists, are infallible.  I'd suggest that you need to have a longer conversation with him highlighting your points and evaluating his responses. He is retired , not dead.  Send him an email

Having never seen or held any of these teeth,  I am not qualified to comment.  Jack

Hulbert still responds to emails? I figured he'd have to leave them as part of his retirement! I'll definitely reach out to him then.

[Shellseeker]

Daniel,

Richard,  he was responding to SOME of mine,  those that interested him the most... No promises

 

You might have missed this thread, given your interest in Miocene wolves....

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/messenger/97494/&tab=comments#comment-389384

 

Jack

[Fin Lover]

I can't open that link... not sure if others can.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Fin Lover

[Meganeura]

11 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Daniel,

Richard,  he was responding to SOME of mine,  those that interested him the most... No promises

 

You might have missed this thread, given your interest in Miocene wolves....

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/messenger/97494/&tab=comments#comment-389384

 

Jack

I can't open it either, weirdly! And I emailed him... we'll see if he decides I'm worth responding to or not  I did mention my suspicions about it possibly being E. Haydeni so maybe that'll spark his interest.

[Shellseeker]

1 hour ago, Meganeura said:

I can't open it either, weirdly! And I emailed him... we'll see if he decides I'm worth responding to or not  I did mention my suspicions about it possibly being E. Haydeni so maybe that'll spark his interest.

 

1 hour ago, Fin Lover said:

I can't open that link... not sure if others can.

Hmmm,

It took me seconds to figure out the problem.  The link is to a PM between PrehistoricFlorida and me concerning Pliocene wolves back in May of 2020.  PMs are private.

 

So,

I will do a little cut/paste.

Quote

Nate,

Hope life is treating you well,

I was hunting yesterday finding 3-toeds and a chunk of Walrus tusk, and this pops up.

So maybe Pliocene wolf...thinking p2...m2 dentition.  Do you you have any Armbruster comparison jaws? 

I am amazed that I get so excited about toothless jaws.   Thanks , Jack

So Daniel,  you are doing precise measurements on google. Nate and I concluded it was canid, but not which canid....

 

Nate sent me this image...

Jack, 

I don't have an Armbruster jaw. But, compare to this C. edwardi jaw. It's going to be extremely difficult (ie. impossible) to positively ID sans teeth.

Nate

 

I promptly compared it to a C edwardi jaw I did find.

Thanks Nate, understood..

I had you and Richard help me on an Edwardi ID 6 months ago,  here compared with yours...

EXCEPT mine is 2 inches... your equivalent is 3 plus,  my m1 is 19mm, yours 25.  This new jaw section would be between them at 2.4 inches for the equivalent section.

 

I have a lot of finding examples and comparisons to do.  Once again thanks, Jack

 

 

 

 

So, just giving you more info and asking what you can deduce about these Florida wolf jaws.  I sort of left it hanging...

[Meganeura]

3 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

 

Hmmm,

It took me seconds to figure out the problem.  The link is to a PM between PrehistoricFlorida and me concerning Pliocene wolves back in May of 2020.  PMs are private.

 

So,

I will do a little cut/paste.

So maybe Pliocene wolf...thinking p2...m2 dentition.  Do you you have any Armbruster comparison jaws? 

I am amazed that I get so excited about toothless jaws.   Thanks , Jack

So Daniel,  you are doing precise measurements on google. Nate and I concluded it was canid, but not which canid....

 

Nate sent me this image...

Jack, 

I don't have an Armbruster jaw. But, compare to this C. edwardi jaw. It's going to be extremely difficult (ie. impossible) to positively ID sans teeth.

Nate

 

I promptly compared it to a C edwardi jaw I did find.

Thanks Nate, understood..

I had you and Richard help me on an Edwardi ID 6 months ago,  here compared with yours...

EXCEPT mine is 2 inches... your equivalent is 3 plus,  my m1 is 19mm, yours 25.  This new jaw section would be between them at 2.4 inches for the equivalent section.

 

I have a lot of finding examples and comparisons to do.  Once again thanks, Jack

 

 

 

 

So, just giving you more info and asking what you can deduce about these Florida wolf jaws.  I sort of left it hanging...

Mm, my best guess here would be what I can probably also conclude about the small canid jaw I found - I'm missing diagnostic teeth (P4, m1, being the most important for IDs), and with an M2 being the same shape consistently throughout canids, I can deduce that my tooth belongs to a large canid... and that's about it. Everything else is pure speculation, I'm sure.