Is this a Calamite?

[Neill]

I collected a number of these as a kid some 50 years ago. Only one is like this. I just thought I should try and identify it. I had always assumed it was a small tree trunk.

Seems to match pictures of a calamite  trunks (a new thing to me) with the distinctive ties at regular intervals. It comes from the old mining town of Brownhills UK. Coal, sand and clay were mined there. This came from the edges of an open pit clay mine. I went back to the site a few years ago but it's reclaimed now. You could still dig small holes and find fragments. So my kids found some. You just needed a bucket of water to wash the rocks off to see if they had anything because of the clay. This piece has a diameter of 4".

[Fossildude19]

Yup. Definitely a Calamites cast.

Great fossil!

[Neill]

51 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Yup. Definitely a Calamites cast.

Great fossil!

So, by cast I assume you mean that the organic material is buried. Eventually decays to leave a void that's filled by some harder mineral though water etc.

Thank you very much for responding.

[Rockwood]

Calamites cast and Triassic age are not compatible. It does look like an infilled pith cavity of Calamites though. The external shape of the trunk was not preserved. It could be a related group that did survive into the Mesozoic. Modern horsetails alternate the alignment of ridges and furrows from section to section.  

[Fossildude19]

Or he could be wrong about the age, and it is Carboniferous in age rather than Triassic.

Coal being mined there would indicate a Carboniferous origin, to me.

 

[Rockwood]

I think the remnants of palaeofloras that would produce coal are more likely to be on southern continents.

[Fossildude19]

1 hour ago, Rockwood said:

I think the remnants of palaeofloras that would produce coal are more likely to be on southern continents.

 

? I don't understand this statement. Plenty of Carboniferous areas in the UK.

 

If the area is in fact, Triassic in age, it could be some other form of Equisetaceae. 

 

@TqB

[Yoda]

5 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

? I don't understand this statement. Plenty of Carboniferous areas in the UK.

Extensive coal beds in the U.K. 

 

i also have this Calamites from Pas De Calais, France 

 

[Rockwood]

43 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

? I don't understand this statement. Plenty of Carboniferous areas in the UK.

 

If the area is in fact, Triassic in age, it could be some other form of Equisetaceae. 

 

@TqB

No, Equisetaceae  don't have pith cavities that look like this. They are the group that modern horse tails belong to. There were some Sphenophytes with this vascular arrangement which survived into the Mesozoic. I believe they are known from southern continents. Therefore the odds are that the piece is Carboniferous, but I don't think it has been proven regardless of how much Carboniferous coal there is in the UK.

[JBkansas]

Calamites (C. sukowi and C. varians) have been documented from that locale:

 

See page 10 below:

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rstb.1918.0004

Edited January 16, 2023 by JBkansas

[Ludwigia]

4 minutes ago, JBkansas said:

Calamites have been documented from that locale:

 

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rstb.1918.0004

 

That clears up the matter. The paper gives the lithography as Old Hill Marls Rock Unit, an obsolete name for the Late Carboniferous Westphalian Stage.

[Rockwood]

7 minutes ago, JBkansas said:

Calamites (C. sukowi and C. varians) have been documented from that locale:

 

See page 10 below:

https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rstb.1918.0004

But is the post from "that locale" or is it from a local which is Triassic in age ? 

There is a chance that that the tags are correct. We should hear the other side of the story if there is one.

[Rockwood]

16 hours ago, Neill said:

This came from the edges of an open pit clay mine.

Open pit clay mine. Not coal shale dump. ?

[FranzBernhard]

4 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

But is the post from "that locale" or is it from a local which is Triassic in age ? 

Yes.

There are carboniferous calamites in Britain for sure.

But is similar looking stuff known from the Triassic of Britain? If not, chances are very high, that this stuff is carboniferous calamites.

 

2 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

Open pit clay mine. Not coal shale dump. ?

Some coal mine spoils could have been dumped over the clay.

 

Franz Bernhard

Edited January 16, 2023 by FranzBernhard

[Fossildude19]

The wikipedia page puts it out in unclear terms:

 

" The geology of Brownhills comprises mainly red clay marl overlying Triassic sandstone and deposits of coal.^[31] (EMPHASIS IS MINE) The town is on several fault lines, the main one being the Vigo Fault, a branch of the larger Eastern Boundary Fault, which runs from Birmingham to Rugeley. On the western side of the fault, in the area of Brownhills Common, the marl is over 1,000 feet (305 m) thinner than on the eastern side, bringing the coal seams significantly closer to the surface.^[38]

 

This sounds like the Triassic sandstone is overlaying the coal deposits, which one would expect from carboniferous coals.

 

[Rockwood]

11 minutes ago, FranzBernhard said:

But is similar looking stuff known from the Triassic of Britain? If not, chances are very high, that this stuff is carboniferous calamites.

It's those low chance finds that matter the most. I don't agree with rounding down to zero when slim is more accurate.

[Neill]

46 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

Open pit clay mine. Not coal shale dump. ?

There is a small wooded area part of what is Brownhills common. They had large equipment moving clay and a fair amount of the rock the specimen is from.

 

I am unsure of Triassic. Thats what I found trying to look it up but there could be different ages for the sand, coal and clay in this area.

[Rockwood]

20 minutes ago, Neill said:

There is a small wooded area part of what is Brownhills common. They had large equipment moving clay and a fair amount of the rock the specimen is from.

 

I am unsure of Triassic. Thats what I found trying to look it up but there could be different ages for the sand, coal and clay in this area.

If you see any fossils in sandstone you should pay attention. The odds do seem to strongly favor a Carboniferous age though.

[JohnJ]

24 minutes ago, Neill said:

There is a small wooded area part of what is Brownhills common. They had large equipment moving clay and a fair amount of the rock the specimen is from.

 

I am unsure of Triassic. Thats what I found trying to look it up but there could be different ages for the sand, coal and clay in this area.

 

Although informative, it's best to not post coordinates on a public forum unless the location is a public fossil park.  

[TqB]

It's a typical piece of Coal Measures Calamites, including the preservation.

[Neill]

36 minutes ago, Rockwood said:

If you see any fossils in sandstone you should pay attention. The odds do seem to strongly favor a Carboniferous age though.

So I lived at the other end of Brownhills as a child and there was one active and on inactive sand/gravel pits. I spend a lot of time searching the inactive pit looking for fossils. I had assumed it must have been the sea at some point. I never found anything despite there being large cliffs cut by mining to look at. The inactive pit is reclaimed now and a park. It has display boards saying the area was desert in the past so that explained to me the lack of fossils.

[Neill]

24 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

 

Although informative, it's best to not post coordinates on a public forum unless the location is a public fossil park.  

So you edited it out? How are the crazy kids of today going to get to do the stuff I did as a kid?

[JohnJ]

1 minute ago, Neill said:

So you edited it out?

 

Yes; we try to not publish coordinates.  The world is a much different place than the one we grew up in over 50 years ago.  Wise stewardship of fossil locations will ensure a better chance for the "crazy kids" of today to find their own fossils.

[Ludwigia]

4 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

That clears up the matter. The paper gives the lithography as Old Hill Marls Rock Unit, an obsolete name for the Late Carboniferous Westphalian Stage.

 

If you guys would only read in detail the paper which JBKansas linked above, then you'll come to the same conclusion as I. Carboniferous Coal Measures Calamites.