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tortienutmeg

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I purchased this claw and the seller had it as pterosaur BUT also said it could be anzu oviraptor but he felt confident it was pterosaur. It was found in Hellcreek, I really know nothing about fossils,and the photos i am attaching are from the listing. I am happy either way no matter what it ends up being. And thank you for any knowledge you guys can provide. Also the size was 0.39in

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Interesting.  There are no species of pterosaur described form the Hell Creek but isolated bones are known.  I don't know much about pterosaur claws but this sure looks like one.  Very thin and stout. Can we get in focus shots of the two side views, your first and last photos.  Interested to see what @troodon has to say about this one

 

Edit:  I just noticed that these are the seller's photos.  

Edited by jpc
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i can't get any other photos as i havent't received it yet. I just purchased it last night and very excited to receive it. Thank you for responding.

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Identification of claws this size is all guess work since nothing is published and little is known.   I've never seen a Pterosaurs claw from the HC and I'm not sure any have been described or even found.

 

Added a photo of a Pteranodon claw from the Niobrara Fm. Kansas.  This morphology of claw is not a match to yours but HC ones might be different. 

 

Screenshot_20230206_193428_Chrome.thumb.jpg.a610aa24454607c0e5c92762d00a5549.jpg

 

I have these two associated hand claws that are 3/4" long, so infant size .  They a similar to adult Anzu wileyi claws but may belong to a different genus of Caenagnathid which is not described.  It does not resemble your claw.

 

Screenshot_20230206_190926_Drive.thumb.jpg.94663f1cf39c66688e5c9b6f334ec6a1.jpg

 

Another small claw in my collection is not described but I'm leaning toward an Oviraptorid or Caenagnathid but that's a guess.  It has some characteristics similar to your claw but the shape and location of the tubercle is a bit different.    Theropod hand claws typically have a different morphology depending on digit so we might be looking at that variation.   Who knows.

 

Screenshot_20230206_190845_Drive.thumb.jpg.74a188c954ee7cfa73a3e989e39865a6.jpg

 

In the end its an indeterminate claw.  I cannot say one way or another if it's pterosaur, theropod or some other animal

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the seller did refer to a claw from Kansas that resembles the one he was selling. He stated in his 25 years fossil collecting in hellcreek,that hes never seen anything like it. Would my best bet to try having identified be best done by a museum? I know absolutely nothing about fossils.but i am willing to learn. Thank you for your response.

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25 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Identification of claws this size is all guess work since nothing is published and little is known.   I've never seen a Pterosaurs claw from the HC and I'm not sure any have been described or even found.

 

Added a photo of a Pteranodon claw from the Niobrara Fm. Kansas.  This morphology of claw is not a match to yours but HC ones might be different. 

 

Screenshot_20230206_193428_Chrome.thumb.jpg.a610aa24454607c0e5c92762d00a5549.jpg

 

I have these two associated hand claws that are 3/4" long, so infant size .  They a similar to adult Anzu wileyi claws but may belong to a different genus of Caenagnathid which is not described.  It does not resemble your claw.

 

Screenshot_20230206_190926_Drive.thumb.jpg.94663f1cf39c66688e5c9b6f334ec6a1.jpg

 

Another small claw in my collection is not described but I'm leaning toward an Oviraptorid or Caenagnathid but that's a guess.  It has some characteristics similar to your claw but the shape and location of the tubercle is a bit different.    Theropod hand claws typically have a different morphology depending on digit so we might be looking at that variation.   Who knows.

 

Screenshot_20230206_190845_Drive.thumb.jpg.74a188c954ee7cfa73a3e989e39865a6.jpg

 

In the end its an indeterminate claw.  I cannot say one way or another if it's pterosaur, theropod or some other animal

Since you didn’t mention it, I presume you are happy it is a legit claw? 
I wondered, but the photos are too blurry to see the bone surface clearly.

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8 hours ago, Doctor Mud said:

Since you didn’t mention it, I presume you are happy it is a legit claw? 
I wondered, but the photos are too blurry to see the bone surface clearly.

Legit meaning real claw, yes definitely its a claw, of what is the question.   Photos are a bit blurry but they are fine.

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Have a different question on the claw, has the seller provided you a locality where it was found, state and county to support it being from the Hell Creek Formation.  Important!

 

A museum is a good option but it really needs to be one very familiar with late Cretaceous material and the palaeontologist must be knowledgeable in that area.  Not all museums or paleontologists fit that bill since that is an obscure specimen.  Its also quite normal that you may not get an answer on this claw, micro specimens unless diagnostic or can be compared to others can be viewed as indeterminate 

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2 hours ago, Troodon said:

Have a different question on the claw, has the seller provided you a locality where it was found, state and county to support it being from the Hell Creek Formation.  Important!

I'd also seen that listing. The locality that the seller provided is the Hell Creek formation of Wibaux County, South Dakota.

:trex::brokebone: Enthusiastic Fossil Hunter bone_brokerev.pngtrexrev.png

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9 minutes ago, Nanotyrannus35 said:

I'd also seen that listing. The locality that the seller provided is the Hell Creek formation of Wibaux County, South Dakota.

Thanks thats HC

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Another possibility is that it could be a fish pharyngeal which can often be mistake for claws of smaller reptiles and mammals, this makes sense based on size of this specimen, I’ve attached a similar specimen below that is almost identical in size and shape for comparison. 

0FE940A5-5622-4F0E-9D37-90E966C36C44.jpeg

D4E60570-E1A1-401E-BA53-8F306F202583.jpeg

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So what should i make of this fossil then? I was told that no fish were around in Hellcreek that this could have come from. Kemkem beds,yes a definite possibility but its not from there. I am spending a lot on this fossil,a lot for me. So want to make sure that its worth it.

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@tortienutmeg There have been many species of fish discovered in the hell creek formation dating to the Cretaceous period. Here is a general list of species found in the locality 


Although definitely not as exciting as finding a newly undescribed species of pterosaurs, this in my opinion is far more likely give the available information 

 

the grooves on the fish pharyngeal can often by mistaken for claw blood groves 

 

https://naturalhistory.si.edu/sites/default/files/media/file/fossil-id-guide062812-accessible.pdf

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@tortienutmeg This could be a pterosaur claw but it isn’t likely, I wouldn’t be comfortable having this in a collection knowing that I’m not able to give an accurate diagnostic identification. As others have said, it’s best if you take it to an expert if you plan on purchasing 

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Timing is perfect, I went into the Tucson show this morning and shared your photos with Pete Larsen.  He is one of the top paleontologists for material from the Hell Creek Fm.  He's never seen or is aware of a pterosaur claw from that deposit but believes it might be one.  So bringing it to a museum will not get you anywhere unless one of the palaeontologist is a pterosaur expert.   Given that it might be one  my suggestion is that you contact a pterosaur expert and see what he says or can point you to someone who can.  One individual I can offer to start is Nick Longrich.

https://researchportal.bath.ac.uk/en/persons/nick-longrich

 

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quoted from troodon above:

"A museum is a good option but it really needs to be one very familiar with late Cretaceous material and the palaeontologist must be knowledgeable in that area.  Not all museums or paleontologists fit that bill since that is an obscure specimen.  Its also quite normal that you may not get an answer on this claw, micro specimens unless diagnostic or can be compared to others can be viewed as indeterminate "

 

I "am" a museum and I do work a lot in the Lance and I have never seen anything like this in the Lance.  This thing is unique enough that you gotta get in touch with not a museum, but an individual who works on both Lance Fm and pterosaurs.  guess what... there is no such person,  Nick L mentioned above is a good candidate, as is Anthony Maltese at the Rocky Mountain Dinosaur Center.  He has probably collected more Kansas pterosaurs than anyone and might be able to say something about this claw, but he might need better photos.  But Maastrichtian pterosaurs are simply not well known.  (The Kansas stuff is about 10 million years older).  You may also want to contact Alex Kellner at the national museum in Brazil.     

 

As an aside, my teams have collected from Lance bonebeds for 15 years now... collected probably 4000 bones and we have one pterosaur bone.  They are rarer than the proverbial hen's teeth.    

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1 hour ago, Troodon said:

Timing is perfect, I went into the Tucson show this morning and shared your photos with Pete Larsen.  He is one of the top paleontologists for material from the Hell Creek Fm.  He's never seen or is aware of a pterosaur claw from that deposit but believes it might be one.  So bringing it to a museum will not get you anywhere unless one of the palaeontologist is a pterosaur expert.   Given that it might be one  my suggestion is that you contact a pterosaur expert and see what he says or can point you to someone who can.  One individual I can offer to start is Nick Longrich.

https://researchportal.bath.ac.uk/en/persons/nick-longrich

 

i contacted the link you provided,thank you

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Broken links.

 

Coco

----------------------
OUTIL POUR MESURER VOS FOSSILES : ici

Ma bibliothèque PDF 1 (Poissons et sélaciens récents & fossiles) : ici
Ma bibliothèque PDF 2 (Animaux vivants - sans poissons ni sélaciens) : ici
Mâchoires sélaciennes récentes : ici
Hétérodontiques et sélaciens : ici
Oeufs sélaciens récents : ici
Otolithes de poissons récents ! ici

Un Greg...

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Something about the bone texture reminds me of some hatchling theropod claws I've seen. Could explain the weird shape and small size.

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6 hours ago, jdp said:

Something about the bone texture reminds me of some hatchling theropod claws I've seen. Could explain the weird shape and small size.

so if its possibly a hatchling is it something still worth purchasing?

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@tortienutmeg

 

Please refrain from posting prices and discussing sellers on the open Forum.

Please restrict the discussion  to be about the fossil itself. Thank you.

 

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1 hour ago, tortienutmeg said:

so if its possibly a hatchling is it something still worth purchasing?

 

I don't assess fossils and my feeling on any of these things is that the value is whatever pleasure owning the fossil brings you. Fossils of course also have scientific value that is distinct from that, but that is not the point of discussion here. If the fossil makes you happy to the tune of whatever you are spending on it, then it is worth buying. If it doesn't, then it is not.

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1 hour ago, tortienutmeg said:

so if its possibly a hatchling is it something still worth purchasing?

 

Thats your decision to decide want you want your collection to look like.  Other cannot tell you what you like.  Most collectors like "big" I always thought that it was much more worthwhile purchasing if it was tiny a juvenile or baby material since it was much rarer.

Here is an associated Baby Hadro from the Two Medicine Fm, MT.  Tiny, tiny stuff not for every collector.

Screenshot_20230208_100334_Drive.thumb.jpg.7020d2aed0ddddfa5f11fc7986a39a7a.jpg

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